Healing Together: The Roses’ Journey of Breaking Chains and Restoring Love | Recovery Vow Podcast

In this deeply vulnerable episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with Ben and Heather Rose, pastors from Oregon whose story of hidden addiction, confession, and redemption reveals the power of truth and grace.

Ben opens up about his decades-long battle with pornography, rooted in early childhood exposure and shame that followed him into adulthood and ministry. What started as curiosity became a silent prison that nearly destroyed his marriage, faith, and calling. Heather shares what it was like to live unknowingly inside that deception—grieving, questioning, yet ultimately choosing forgiveness and healing when everything came into the light.

Together, the Roses walk through how confession, counseling, and God’s grace not only restored their marriage but birthed a new ministry dedicated to helping others find freedom from sexual brokenness.

This episode is a raw, redemptive reminder that nothing hidden stays healed—and that restoration is always possible when truth enters the room.

On This Episode:
The roots of sexual addiction and early exposure
How secrecy and shame destroy intimacy in marriage
The moment of full confession that changed everything
Heather’s process of forgiveness and healing
How faith and counseling rebuilt their relationship
Why true recovery requires light, honesty, and grace

Connect with the Roses:
Instagram: @cross_the_island
Website: crosstheisland.org

Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  I am sitting with some good friends of mine, the Rose family, Heather and Ben, who have traveled all the way in from Oregon. Yes, sir. Oregon. Yes. Says it's cold. Um, and we're going to talk a little bit about their story, but I I thought it was really cool because uh their story talks about process addictions. Now, this book uh Marriage After Addiction is written for couples just like this who have had issues with process addiction, substance addiction. But, you know, I often get asked, "Well, how does this help, you know, um someone that had a sexual addiction?" Well, read the book and you'll understand. Ben, why don't you kick us off? Tell us a little bit about who you are and and how you met your lovely wife and then where the train [snorts] left the track. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Well, um, Ben and Heather Rose, we are originally from Juno, Alaska. [clears throat] Y'all grew up in Juno? We grew up in Juno. I live in Ketchacan. Oh, I think we talked about this. Did we talk about this? Yeah. My sister-in-law is from Ketchacan. I lived there like as long as you guys are, but I was in Ketchacan. Yeah. So, Heather was born and raised in in Juno and and I was moved there when I was seven. and my dad took a church in Juno and um him and my mom still there pastoring to this day and um but now we're in Portland, Oregon pastoring a church and boy but the journey between 7 years old and where we're at today is pretty wild. We um had a I had a a a sexualized experience in second grade with with my best friend. We were left home alone in a room, two curious young boys, and we um just started acting out some of the things that we had been seeing on TV and movies and things like that. And how old were you? I was 8 years old. 8 years old. And um you know, through that experience, I really feel like that's where the [clears throat] enemy kind of got his hook, you know, in me. And that's what it felt like. It felt like uh that was the moment where the door opened and you know innocence was lost so to speak with two two curious young boys who are curious about their bodies and and things we were seeing on TV or things we were seeing in you know magazines that were coming to to mom you know Victoria's Secrets and those kind of things coming to to the house and and so we were curious about what was happening with our bodies you know come come later to find out in counseling that's a pretty normal thing but you when there's a lack of sexual disciplehip in the home. Um, and I, you know, I want to say like I I I honor my parents. Um, my parents discipled me so well in God's word and righteousness and and and all of the things, you know, God's love for me and they were incredible parents, but that was an area that we just had never had disciplehip in that area up to that point. So, I didn't know. Why do you think that would be even them having the the backing as pastoral? Probably just intimidating. Lack of tools. Yeah. Sexually discipled. How do you Yeah. How do you lead others? Yeah. And I think the church was in a gener was in a was when an age where there was a lot of subjects that we were that were left alone that we didn't talk about, you know? So, so um you know I like I said I felt like that the enemy got his hook in me at that point and I just felt like I was just felt like over sexualized you know. So yeah I mean it was almost like I I question you uh in regards to disciplehip right that but you know how does that happen because I can relate to you. Mhm. You know, my parents control what they thought they knew about. Yeah. But what they don't know about, would that scare them? And what kind of control or how would they parent that? You know, what would be the response? Yeah. So, do you remember what the response was? Did your parents find out right away? [snorts] No. Oh, years and years and years. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, they they No, I again felt like just over sexualized. And I remember I mean I remember in fourth grade you know we didn't have porn in the pockets like the like kids do these days you know in a cell phone these portals that just is is wild. It's like a loaded gun that we give our kids. But um we didn't have that. And so we had to you know find you know magazines. We had to find people that had HBO people you know like. And so I but I remember being in fourth grade just being on the search for like these sexualized images and my friend and I actually broke into a house of a neighbor that we knew was on vacation because we knew he had Playboy magazines and so stealing a Playboy. I mean breaking and entering at fourth grade, you know, and putting it in a [snorts] Ziploc bag, hiding it in the woods. And so just like growing up, you know, and the the crazy thing was well, not the crazy thing, but like I loved the Lord, man. I just I I always have had a soft heart, a pastoral heart really for for Jesus and um knew I had a call of God in my life and and um have always loved people, have always, you know, almost kind of known that ministry was in my future. So I I grew up just kind of like in this like dupistic lifestyle, you know, and um and then felt dupistic and then the shame that comes along with that cuz like again it's I felt like I had a book and I was in a library and I was like I don't know where to file this book. Like I don't know where to file what I'm going through because I've never really heard anybody talk about it. And well-meaning children's pastors and well-meing youth pastors would say funky things about Yeah. because they're going to define it like Yeah. And it's like, you know, they would make, you know, illusions to it, but we never really got into like the the nitty-gritty of some of these subjects. And so, I'm just like I'm just growing up going, I love the Lord, but I have this there's this darkness. There's this hiddenness, and I'm taking it to my grave. I remember one time I tried to tell somebody and it was a friend of mine in youth and I was like, "Hey, this happens and I, you know, and I'm really drawn to this and and this is what happens with my body and you know, and I'm trying to explain what's going on and he's like, gross, dude. That's disgusting." And I was like, "Okay, taking this one to the grave, not telling anybody ever, you know, after that kind of reaction." Can I relate with you for a minute? Yes. I want you to not feel like you're the only one in the room by yourself. Oh, I know I'm not. Um, that same thing happened to me. Mhm. It was, uh, with a, and I've said this before on the podcast, uh, so listeners may have already heard it, but, um, yeah, I remember being that maybe 8 years old and the girl that was supposed to be helping the babysitter cuz she was older like watch us. Um, I had my first sexual experience at that age, you know. Yeah. And it maybe wasn't the actual God-given way for a man and woman to have sex. I am trying my best to describe this in as most PG-13 way as possible. We didn't have intercourse, but we did everything else. I did everything else to her. She did everything else to me. I was That's how I was taught. Yeah. Yeah. And then years after that, I would remember climbing on top of the the the roof at the high school because when guys were about to get caught, they would chunk them up on we had these flat, you know, walkway coverings and they were we I remember magazines being up there and um they were in my my dad had them, you know. So, [clears throat] I mean, it's it's different for me that my addiction um took me to a different place because of that trauma. Yeah. To where I wanted to fit in because I knew that what did you call the word you used a minute ago was a very good word. Dupistic. Yeah. I didn't realize that I was going to be a dupistic person at the time. That was me becoming a dupistic person. How about that? Like this 8-year-old to 12year-old is starting to split and very inongruent, right? Yeah. This this Eric that everybody's going to know isn't going to be the one that is the true Eric because I want to I need to figure out who this is. But this is who this is wasn't ready to be even talked to yet. Let's just drink. Let's do drugs. Let's just live life. We're not talking about college. We're not talking about parents. We're not talking about any of that. Yeah. So that's where I can feel that when you said that I'm like and a lot of times with you know [clears throat] what we find is you know the average age of exposure is like 8 n years old to sex to sex for our kids like and pornography for these these kind of these unwanted and we always say like as kids kids aren't going looking for them. The enemy is looking is you know looking for it. The enemy is looking for them. So I really believe that that's that's was was the plan of the enemy was to [clears throat] you know come at me in this vulnerable state like I wasn't looking for it it was looking for me. Do you think that age that you just mentioned is lower now because of like telephones and iPads or anything? I think so. I think could be. I think so. I think and when I tell my story it's it's so common for people to come up to me and say we have the exact same story. 8 years old with another little boy. eight years old with another little girl. Curiosity and again finding out in counseling years later that like that is a normal that curiosity over the body, the changing body, the feelings that is super normal if processed, you know, with a parent in in an environment, you know, where ruthless truthtelling is is the norm. That's that's, you know, that's that's a really normal thing. So even hearing that was like almost like a layer of shame coming off because you know in secrecy and in hiding that's where that's where you know shame and condemnation and all that stuff kind of comes in. And for me I didn't go to another substance like I smoked pot one time in my life. You know the the guys on a basketball trip you know got me to do that. So just a real rebellious you know drug life that I had. No. Um, [clears throat] alcohol. Yeah. Calm down. Yeah. Alcohol was never never really had an appeal to me. Um, but I think I masked with with religion. I think I I I masked with people pleasing. And I think that's was where fear of man came in because I was trying to cuz I felt so inongruent, you know, with the the the Ben who that I knew in the darkness with the Ben who was the pastor's kid who had this call of God on his life who, you know, was the musician and and so I I was constantly trying to manage image, you know, whether that's exaggerating up or exaggerating down to kind of to kind of chameleon to kind of control. Yeah. Cuz like that I think that is it's control cuz you know you feel so out of control in area. It's like here's what I can control. I can control people's perception of me. And so I think that's what led me down such a um just a dark place really. Yeah. You know and it just you know lust is never satisfied. You know lust lust doesn't push back from the table and say I'm full. Like lust always demands more. And so this thing that I'm you know you start making vows like um you know once I find a wife [snorts] you know this will this will be this will be over with. Do you ever plan on telling your wife? Did Oh no I think I I I gave when we were dating you tell that one. Yeah. when we were dating, he told me a story of something that he had done in Australia. [clears throat] And I came from an a religious background as well of, you know, sexuality and sex in general. It was just don't. No, no, no, no, no. Until you get married. Until you get married, right? And then it's a gift and it's wonderful. Yes. But so I just being a firstborn was like done no, you know, so I won't think about it. I won't consider it. I won't. And so then we were dating and he told me just kind of a story of um a way that he had I'd gone to I'd gone in Australia um walking downtown Australia is like 18year-old 19year-old and you know lady from the strip club probably topless comes out and goes come on in. And I'm just like, "Okay." And I and I went in and um that was probably your first like first acting out, acting out, you know, whereas pornography is kind of like acting in hidden and secret by yourself. And then there's the acting therapeutically they'll call it acting in and acting out. That was like my first acting out. Acting out is when you see it and go to it. Acting in is when you see it that's hidden in the darkness. It's the pornography. It's the by yourself. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, he told me about this experience when we were dating and he was like really shook up about it. He was crying and I was like, "Oh man, that's horrible. I'm so sorry." Because I knew that's not who he was. And so, this sin, this um moment had just grabbed him, you know, and he did something he regretted. He like the [snorts] like the dude in Proverbs 5 67, you know, like I guess as I I watch out my window and I see like the [ __ ] going by, you know, the prostitute's house and it's like I mean that that was me. That was meek because it was everything was unchecked and it was all secret and it was hidden. So it had the power over me. I didn't have power over it. So anyway, we're dating. He tells me the story and he says, "I don't ever want to talk about this again." Okay. And [laughter] I was like, "Okay, okay. We will never talk about this again and I forgive you and I'm so sorry for your experience." And we never talked about it again. Yeah. And so that's Yeah. And I And so I'd acted out in Australia and then you're about 20. Yeah. And I so but but I you know I I again Eric I I thought that marriage was just going to fix everything. Mhm. You know because we were just going to be we were just going to be swinging from the chandeliers you know it was just going to be sex all the time and and we were it was just going to fix everything. And and so um you know we get married and 3 months in I find myself sneaking off to the office to look at pornography in the middle of the night. Wow. you know, and and so again, I I don't have control over it. It has control over me. And I say, "Oh, wow." Like, it's not surprising because I used to sneak off and leave the kids and everybody home and go get drugs. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, Mhm. It's very similar. Yeah. It is addiction. Yeah. and and so um you know and then we got she got pregnant 7 months into marriage with our first and and uh so I just said that you know there's no way in hell man that I'm going to have a son you know and be the dad like so this this stops but there's no plan in place there's no there's no letting the light in there's no it's just like I'm going to manage this I'm going to control this I'm going to do this I'm going to Uh and you know my my son my first son Ashton is born and um nothing changes. You know maybe mo momentarily maybe I have some momentarily emotions but nothing changes and then Taylor couple years Taylor comes along my my my next son and I'm just like so I'm making these flimsy milestones you know which is which is really I'm sure you see this all the time in addiction. It's like we try to make the you know by such and such a time or this is the last time next time this happens I'll tell somebody next you know it's like these alarm bell statements that it's a form of like what do we call it symbolic self completion symbolic self yeah then then I'll stop and it kind of satiates your mind it's like what I don't really have to do anything because I just you know it's like I'm going to write a book guys hey guys I'm going to write a book and it's like yeah I'm an author I'm but you never actually sit down and write the Mhm. Like there's a satiation of the mind that happens. And that was my life, bro. Like I was like, and I still don't know because again, I'm so my my sexual brokenness was I was so disconnected from sexuality and just embracing the good because I also was not sexually discipled. So it was no no don't don't don't. We actually we crossed boundaries in our before we were married. M um we didn't have sex, but we did a lot basically everything else before we got married. And so I had a lot of shame then around cuz I said, "No, no, no, I won't. I don't don't don't." And then we sort of did. So then we get married and it's supposed to be all good and great and let's go for it. And that was a struggle cuz there was still shame attached to all of that. And so he's struggling with this addiction and I am 100% clueless because I'm so disconnected from the reality of sexuality and just what's kind of going on in our in [clears throat] our sexual intimacy. She said she always felt some, you know, even we've always been like best friends. We've always we have a lot of similar interests. We do a lot of things together. So even in our disconnection, there was a lot of times where we're still we were still close. We still really loved each other. We're still really good friends, really compatible. Yeah. But she said she always felt something some sort of you know like a missing piece. Yeah. And and you know we we always say secrets separate. So there was secrets and so what she was feeling was the residue of secrets you know and it you know some couples you see and it's like the great wall of China between them. There's just like yeah there's that there's a barrier between y'all. I felt like with us it was saran wrap. But that's still when you're trying to be close you know that's it's awkward. It's there's it's like something is is keeping us from true intimacy like spiritual intimacy, emotional intimacy, sexual, financial intimacy, recreational intimacy. Like something is keeping us from like fully connecting here. Mhm. And so I just kind of moving along in the story, I'm just like, okay, now we're pregnant with a daughter. There's no way. There's no way I'm bringing a little girl into this world and having her dad sneaking off and looking at pornography and having emotional affairs with, you know, I was starting to have what what I would consider emotional affairs with people. Um, you know, getting attached, you know, um, not nothing physical, but my my heart, my emotions were there's some fantasy struggles attached with pornography, right? That Yeah. or you play a part or something like that again. Totally. Totally. And so I'm and I feel like the inongruency is growing and you know that, you know, an anger is a false sense of control, right? So the angry person is somebody who a lot of times is out of control in some major areas of their liv. [clears throat] And so they're going to use that to like this is something I can control. I can control people through anger. And so I think, you know, and and anger always is anger towards self first, right? And so I I was I was getting more and more frustrated with myself and angry at myself and I did not like myself. And so then that gets the insidious thing about sin and anger is that we take it out on the people that are closest to us, you know, cuz I I got to put on a happy face cuz now I'm on staff at my dad's church. And so now I'm a pastor and I'm, you know, communicating the word and I'm worship. So I' i've got to I've got to be awesome for everybody else. and everyone else has to think that I walk on water. But I get home and I and the real me comes out and I'm getting short with the kids. I'm irritable. I'm lazy. Okay. Lazy. [laughter] She wait till we got here and then she's like, "No, you knew that. You never told me that." No, I'm just kidding. Um, no. I mean, I was a I was a hot mess. Yeah, I was a hot mess. you know, and and uh so Macy comes along, my daughter, and [snorts] you know, nothing changes because nothing changes. And and so I'm so like feel so discontent. And so a dude from Oregon, you know, friend of mine just says, "Hey, if you're ever just like needing a break, come down and and we'll have a bunch of fun." It was super evangelist. He had spoken for us, just a really fun guy, just a great guy. So I'm going to take you up on this offer. So, I went down to Oregon and we just spent a few days together and he said, "Hey, you need to meet my pastor." And so, I met this guy and we stayed up really late talking around the fire and and at the end of the night he was like, "Hey, why don't you move down to Portland and plant the second location of of our church, you know?" And um I was like, "Whoa." I thought I was going to live and die in Juno. You know, thought my parents were going to ride off into the sunset, hand us the baton, and we were just going to Mhm., you know, we loved it there. Loved the people there. Still do still love it. And so we um prayed about it and and I just was like, "Yeah, let's do it." So we moved to Portland. Was this a family decision? You guys had like the conversation. Heather's all on board, you know, like like he said, we were friends. So yeah, he we he said, "Hey, let's do this." And I we prayed about it and um I prayed about it and honestly what I heard the Lord say was um I didn't hear him say, "Hey, Heather, go to Portland and plant a church." I heard him say, "Follow your husband." And um can I ask you a question real quick, Heather? Did you know about anything? No. Zero. Okay. So, there was the emotional affair that he talked about. Um, I had a breakdown moment where I confronted him about that and it took a few times because what comes with addiction a lot of times is that um manipulating, what do we call it? Not stonewalling but um gaslighting. Gaslighting. Gaslighting. And so I, you know, it took a while for me to confront this relationship that he was having um because he kept telling me I was crazy. I didn't know what you were talking about. Whatever. And I finally was just losing my ever loving mind. And he's like, "Okay, okay, fine. Okay, I'll cut it off." And um so there was that. So I did know that there was that part and we had just had a baby and so I was a little bit crazy. You know, you just have a baby, you are a little bit um off postpartum, but so there was that, but we were still close and he cared about me. He loved me. And so it was probably a year later, year and a half, our daughter was probably one when you went to Portland and We were sensing a transition. There was a lot going on like this undercurrent and I don't believe all of it was due to the addiction. I do think the Lord was he was working on our behalf behind the scenes. I think I think he was having us move. I think he was having us move to pull the rug out from under us to be honest cuz Juno was such a safe place. It was a padded room. Yeah. You know, we were loved. We were It was also your waiting room. Like he had you there before you Yeah. do this big thing. And we had just we had just built a beautiful after school program. And we had just like you know a lot of favor a lot of and so and both grandparents set so grandparents lived there. We had babysitters. We had you know builtin babysitters. We had a beautiful home that we had just finished building custom and people need to know Juno Alaska and Ketchacan Alaska are the prettiest places you can ever see. I mean we grew up in a postcard. Yes. Yeah. Yep. It is a rainforest though. Yeah. But it's Well, we moved to Portland. It was like Palm Springs to us. Really? Yeah. We It was so I thought it's like where they shot Twilight. There's a lot of rain. That's Washington. Okay. That's way different. Never been done either one of them. Oh man. We're going to have you out. But so that that's what I [clears throat] one of the things like that I hate about addiction and and hearing you know hearing it and we've obviously talked about it a lot now but it's you know because of my manipulation and because you know gaslighting if you want to call it that or just redirecting it to make her feel crazy. You know, this a lot of times the spouse of someone who's in addiction starts to question their own discernment. Mhm. Because we're, you know, I'm sitting here spinning plates trying to hide everything. I'm I'm I'm using up so much mental capacity, so much processing power to try to like look good in her eyes and, you know, everybody else's eyes. And, [snorts] you know, and so the whole time that, you know, the byproduct of that is she's questioning. She's like, "Man, I'm I'm I'm off. My discernment's off. My," you know, so she's starting to shut down. And she's not made to shut down. And I hope I can I'm hoping I can say this and it be okay. It's like Yes. Say it. She's got this. She's got two of you. Yes. She's got a dupistic totally version. Yep. And then the version that she's married to and she doesn't know who's coming to the house every afternoon. You know what I mean? So it's like Yep. Am am I in love with both of these people or am I in love with this one and this one is the one we got to get rid of. And man, had I have been able to How lucky you have two that [laughter] four of you to love. Four of me to love. I But I couldn't. Which one was lazy, Heather? This one. [laughter] Both of them. She No, but I think I couldn't I couldn't really fully articulate that of course at the time because also deception is known as like a cloud. You're wrapped in smoke. That's what the word deceived means. And so in his deception, I'm also in your deception. So we're both like wrapped in smoke. So I can't figure out. He's irritated and frustrated with the way life is going, but I feel like it's my fault. And so I'm trying to and I think that's where codependency starts too, right? So I'm trying to fix every one of his frustrations cuz I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, the garage is a mess. Let me fix that for you." And you don't want to preach at youth, so I'll do it tonight. you know, even that's your job and I just took care of all the kids and now we're doing, you know, all these things and I just So, he's spinning plates and I'm spinning the plates and so we're just in this weird um unsustainable season of life and that's where I think God did say he's like, "All right, you guys need to get up and out of this thing." Yeah. And so, so that was the unraveling happening. Yes. And [clears throat] and planting a church from scratch was going to fix it. Oh, right. Yeah. That was going to fix it. Just like you're not an alcoholic. Just Just Yeah. Just like just like you know having a kid was going to fix it just like you know all just and again so there's another milestone. Yeah. You know addicts think the same way. I've talked to addicts before that you know they really pick up their drinking or whatever in high school and then they're like oh soon as I go to college get out of college it's done. Oh when I meet that Heather you know. Yes. It's done. You know, it's the reason I'm saying that is it is so interesting to see the the same characteristics. Yes. When it comes to this type of addiction, Yeah. to a substance addiction. Process and substance. Two different things. Yes. But very very different in how [snorts] they're handled. The one thing I did think about is that um and you guys are probably about to get to this part in the story, I'm sure, where maybe somebody came along and helped you walk through this or whatever, but nobody really goes after and maybe I'm wrong in this. There may be a number we need to look up percentage-wise or chat GPT can tell us, but there's not a lot out there for outside of counseling. There's not a lot of work to level the ground so that the spouse, a supportive spouse and the husband can walk through sexual addiction together, whether it's on her side or his side. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm pushing for the book at the end. But um did you guys were you provided any kind of resource besides a counselor when all this broke loose after you started your church and then she come to find out all the things? Yeah. I mean really really it was the two years of counseling for me is when when the lights came on and um yeah and then somebody you know helped walk us through and her so I would I would go every other week and she would come with you know she would come with me every other week and so she felt very supported in that I did. Yeah, for sure. the um so I'll pick up on the on what led us there on you know so I get to Portland and I realized oh my gosh I'm anonymous here I think I think the fact that my dad had the big church my dad was on TV and radio growing up small town small town 32,000 people you know you go to Fred Meyer you go to our grocery store hug 12 people you know I there was something there was something in me that was like you're not going to get away with it here and I and and I was really averse to pain and I was really averse to being in trouble which is really an an interesting thing and I feel like the Lord is the last couple years is actually there's another layer that's kind of you know is coming off there but um so we get to Portland and the thought that hits me is like I'm anonymous this is 2.28 28 million people in Portland and nobody knows me and it's an incredibly sexualized city, you know, I think most strip clubs per capita. Mhm. And so I I start just spiraling out of control and I'm I'm going to massage parlor. Um, you know, there's there was at that time in Portland, there was a website with just kind of all nefarious activity, adult activity. And so I'm texting people for massages, you know, and and and these things. And so, so I acted out, you know, it was so interesting cuz I would sometimes I would go, [snorts] I'd be there for a second and it would hit me. I was like, "Oh my god, what am I doing?" And I would leave. That was the other that was the other, you know, and thank God there was some Holy Spirit, you know, his presence still in me that that I would go, "Oh man, what am I doing?" Like, "What the hell am I the actual hell am I doing here?" And I would and I would leave. But it was so what the deceptive part would be like, "Dude, I just Yeah, I just fled that. I just got out of there." Like like like I'm Joseph or something, you know, fleeing Piper's wife. Like what was I doing there in the first place to begin with? Yeah. And so I'm just you know, and the gifts are without repentance. And and so I was like, I think in the church are our team starting to grow. We're having meetings in our home. I'm miserable, by the way. I'm miserable. How far into the first step in Oregon to now is that is this a year? 13 years. 13 years in your miserable. No, no, no, no. Oh, sorry. Sorry. And then you're like a month in. I'm like months in. So we took we took Sorry. We took seven months. We took seven months to plant the church. So thus seven months I was miserable. Yeah. Okay. Miserable. And And I was mean. And you can say what you called me, what you thought about me. He was an a-hole. Mhm. He was a real jerk. [laughter] Yep. And And I guess it it he said you could say the word. Well, she didn't even say it, but [laughter] um but she was she said she would be happy when I would leave the house. Yeah. Yeah. And here's my best friend. And I just like he's just causing such angst and he's irritable and I don't know when he's going to explode next. And he's not helping me with the kids. In fact, his form of helping is actually worse than actually if you just go. Yeah. Okay. You're going to go golf with your guys friends. Okay, great. You're going to go have dinner. Okay, fine. Just whatever. Just bye. You know, I didn't say it to him like that cuz I couldn't be that strong cuz that would cause interruption. So, I had to play it play it quiet, low, and slow. But um it was very not like you. I just thought it was the stress and pressure of planting a church because we you know we needed it for income, right? So it was stressful. It was like okay we need this thing to work and we knew God had called us there. Um that it was growing, things were succeeding, but the other man like you said is who I had at home. And it seems like the if I keep doing this like this guy that you created is getting bigger than this guy. Yeah. Yeah. like kick you out. There's an old Veggie Tales thing that kept coming to mind with like the little fib and it was cute and it was little and then it turned into a monster. You [clears throat] know, it's been years since I've seen that show with my kids. But that's I'm not sure everybody that's going to watch that listens to Veggie Tales, but I know what you're talking about. I need to go back and watch it. I haven't I haven't in 15 years. But that's that's it's it's the little thing that you know that that um man I thought I could back off. I thought I I thought I could control it, but it it it was controlling me. Yeah. And and so finally, um take me to Rock Bottom. Like when did these two people start fighting? [clears throat] Rock Bottom was um I had gone to pick up some friends from the airport that that had moved down from Alaska with us. And on the way there, I went to a massage parlor. And as I was walking in, I had a disassociated moment where I was quoting Proverbs to myself. I I can still remember the Nikes I was wearing. I remember the coat I was wearing. I was dis I was disassociated from my body. And I'm I was watching my steps and I was quoting Proverbs in my head. I was going the steps of a fool lead to poverty. And I'm quoting like death. the you know the scriptures you know proverbs five about the fool and I was like I couldn't stop myself as the chem like the chemicals had taken over and I was just you know you know I was serving this master and and so I left there I went and picked them up I remember the whole way on the way to the airport before going in I I went I went to go see to go see a a in Mhm. for a massage and left to the airport. And I think the whole way to the airport I just screamed and and I I'm trying to make deals with God like, "God, can we like can we like can we do a redo and pretend this didn't happen?" Cuz it scared me, man. That one scared me cuz it was like she was like, "Yo, you want to let's you want to have sex?" And I was like, "No. But I but it was so it was so evil and it was so gross and it was so it was it was rock bottom and and and I just I screamed all the way to the airport. I got I went to the airport. I actually like tried to like take a like a bathroom shower in the sink. I mean I'm just trying I'm just going I feel so filthy. I feel so disgusting. you know, the day before, you know, or the the night of I was I think I was at a small group gathering and, you know, um the daughter of the people who owned the home walked into the room and the Lord just gave me like a word of knowledge for her. So, I'm I was still operating in the gifts, you know, and and and still seeing success in different areas. And so, this thought of like I'm getting away with it meant but that night I was like, I'm not getting away with this. This is this is eating my lunch. Mhm. You know, and it's only a matter of time. And then my [snorts] buddy who was head of the the church, the the network that I was planting with, we we usually had a ton of fun and would go hang out. And he's like, "Hey, you want to hang out?" And I was like, "Yeah, let's do it." And so he goes, "Hey, there's a documentary um that Nancy Pelosy's daughter filmed with Ted Haggard and he goes, "Let's watch this documentary." And I was like, "Okay, cool." So we watched this documentary. I love a good documentary about Ted Haggard and what happened, you know, with his life. And it scared I mean it was the fear of the Lord in me. Mhm. Because you know he was 9 I think 9 10 11 years old and he played a woman character in a school play and a hook got in him. Mhm. With samesex attraction and he never told anybody. And his church blew up. You know obviously New Life was one of the largest churches in America. And it hit the news you know that he was with a male prostitute doing drugs. you know, he was America's pastor. And I watched that movie and I I was fearful. I was scared out of my mind. And the next day we were we were actually at Indian food. Can I ask you why you were scared? I was scared cuz I was like, "That's me." And you you're afraid that that's me. Someone's going to write a documentary about it's going to Well, I just Pastor Rose is my dad. Pastor Ben is me. Um, [laughter] excuse me. uh Pastor Ben. But I mean that's your fear though find out of going this is the trajectory of my life. Yeah. Cuz you this camera crews in the parking lot. Yeah. And sin had taken Ted Haggard this unconfessed siction. And then and then you know the wisdom from my father starts hitting me. You know sin will take you further than you wanted to go. Cost you more than you were willing to pay. Keep you longer than you wanted to stay. And I'm just like going, "Oh God, oh God." And uh I'm and I'm seriously I'm praying prayers like and I felt like it was weird. It was like during that season I felt like when I would pray I felt like it would just go [snorts] like like my prayers would just they weren't like we're not being Yeah. It was it was crazy. And so we're we're at a Indian food the next day and the pastor just says out of the blue he just and it was not the blue. It was the Holy Spirit. He says, "You know, if someone was to like confess something, it's so much better than when they get caught or found out." And I and I literally I got up from the table and I went and I started like dry heaving in the bathroom and I was like, "Cuz you knew you needed to confess." I knew I and the only way I can describe it is I was like in a greased funnel and there was no way I there was only one way to go and that was just disclosure. And I didn't know how to disclose, Eric, cuz that had never been modeled to me. Disclosure had never been modeled. And so we get back to the office, I start crying on the way back and I sit down and they call one of the elders in and and we're sitting there and I and I gave an iceberg confession. I gave about 30%. because I thought that if I You're still kind of trying I was [clears throat] still trying to control even in my disclosure, you know, and I I didn't know anything about a therapeutic disclosure at that time. I I just knew that I that I had to give this I had to get something out. And so I gave a partial disclosure, changed some dates and some times and some frequencies. Um like that's like that's any better, but in my mind it was. And um and they actually told me, they said, "Don't tell your wife." Which is horrible advice. They said, "Don't tell, you know, we'll work with you. She doesn't need to know." Um and then fast forward about 6 weeks, we're about to launch the church on a Sunday. It's Wednesday, and something in their spirit just was like, "Something's he's not telling us the full truth." And so they basically they they came at me and they were like in Jesus' name tell us everything. And so I just blurted out and gave a full disclosure at that point as as much as I as much as I could think of in that moment. And and it was at that time when I actually like let the light in and and that was the moment that started the healing process. And so then they said, "Hey, you got to tell your wife." So So here it is Wednesday. We plant the church the our launch Sunday is that Sunday and here [snorts] it is Wednesday. We get I find sitters to watch the kids and then take Heather on a drive to a parking lot and just disclose everything that has been going on through our marriage. So So this was how many years of information you were letting go? 25. 25 years of 25 years of unwanted sexual behavior. 10 We were We'd been married 10 years at that point. We were 10 years into our marriage at that point and had a church that was kicking off in about 4 days. Yeah. Welcome to Oregon. Yeah. [laughter] Heather, here's the biggest question. This was his rock bottom. He's coming out of what how did you view it at first and and how was it the information delivered? Well, he I knew something was serious because he had gotten sitter was my aunt watched the kids. They were little kids at the time. And um so he tells me and I so many things happened all at once. But I was so sad for my best friend who had been struggling by himself for so long with just the way the hook of the enemy had just yanked him around. because I knew in that moment the Holy Spirit told me, he just said, um, "Sin is not Ben and Ben is not sin." And so I knew with him telling the truth and letting the light in, I was like, that saran wrap and that puzzle piece that was missing, it all made sense. Mhm. I was like, "Oh, this is what's been going on. This is the information I needed. This is why you were an a-hole. This is why my prayers of God help my husband. God, help my husband. God, help my husband. Here it is. Here's the help." And so, um, you know, I was shocked, I was sad, I was grieved, I was mad, but I was also really, really relieved to know the truth. Um, and she looked at me and she just said, "We're going to win." Yeah. That's what you said. That's And that's what the husband wants, too. Now, you deserve to hear all the other things that you wanted to say, right? But the ones that we wait on are those that say, "We're going to win." Because what that does for for me is when you say that, I hear that starting all the way back when you were 8 years old. Mhm. and you lost that moment. Yeah. Your wife is going to help you win and beat that moment. And so that thing that had become this big to little Ben, little pastor Ben has now grown and you're kicking its Yeah. a-hole all over the place. You know what I mean? It's because your wife came along and helped you. Yeah. That's the importance of marriage. And it is. And and I'm telling you, we're so big. So like our ministry is called Cross the Island and it's it's about an island in Alaska and it's this island. It's called Fortress of the Bears. It's Admiral T Island. Coots new is the native name, but it means Fortress of the Bears. There's one brown bear, grizzly bear for every square mile on this island. It's the seventh largest island in North America. And the Lord instantly gave me a picture that I had been circumnavigating these things for 25 years. Unwilling to square my shoulders up, unwilling to be honest, unwilling to let just to ex let the Lord excavate everything out and let the light into every crack, corner, crevice of my heart and my my insides, you know, cuz the light is disinfecting. You know, the truth will set you free. And and you know, and this is on a different level of truth besides you just um having that one-on-one oneonone time with God because a lot of people will take their truth and privacy and Lord, please forgive me for that. Well, I I had I had done that 7 million times 25 years. We had dust dusty rose was the name of the carpet color. It was like this pink carpet, you know, in our Assembly of God church. And and uh I remember being at that altar on those stairs hundreds of times saying, "Lord, take this from me. Lord, [snorts] this is the last time. Lord, forgive." And you know, and and but I had never done James 5:16. I had never confessed my faults one to another. And and and let the light in. And so, you know, everything negative in life grows in the darkness. And so, I mean, that's the destruction was was taking over my life. And it wasn't until, you know, I was fired 10 days later, by the way. So I I confess we do the launch service. We have a couple hundred people. It's awesome. It was the weirdest best day. It was really So you preached on that Sunday? Kind of. They let me quasi preach a little bit, you know, and it they didn't know how to handle it. They were I was a shell. I was like just was there. [laughter] Yeah. This is my wife. Confused. I was so confused. I was like, "There's no way we're going forward with this." But here we are going forward with this. I just knew. I was like, "We're not pastoring this church." And he's like, "Yes, we are. We're going to be fine." And I'm like, "No." Mhm. Yeah. You know, that's not positivity in my top five in StrengthFinder. So, um, [laughter] my strategy. Yeah. So, so I uh Yeah. So, they said, you know, everything was happy and then all of a sudden they turned they turned and I think they got scared like, "Oh, crap." like what's So they said, "Hey, you need to go see this counselor." And so I went and saw a counselor, former pastor and precious precious dude. Mhm. Um and uh I met with him and [clears throat] he was like, "Let's we're going to we need to pull him out of the spotlight for for a year. He needs to not be on a stage with a light for a year." Good. And um it was the man, it was the best thing ever. Mhm. So they fired me and they sequestered me from the church, sequestered the church from me. Um I I obviously would not recommend that, but the Lord used that. Mhm. Because I was so I think dependent on people and fear of man and people pleasing was part of that addiction of of everything wrapped in there. And so it really caused us to hunker down as a family. Yeah. You know, and the Lord spoke to me. He said, cuz I'm a visionary, the Lord spoke to me. He just says, "Win the day." Just kind of the old Chip Kelly mantra from when he was at Oregon was win the day. And so I just, it was all about winning the day. And Lord, the Lord gave a strategy and was I was going to be the best husband I could be that day. I was going to be the best father I could be that day. And I was going to provide for my family, you know. So Lord had me start a business. That's good. And we just put our head down and we just went to we just ruthless truthtelling. we stopped exaggerating. I mean, he just gave us like nine kind of nine different things that we looked back on that through counseling. And so, um, it was like a new marriage. It was like a new family. You know what's crazy is is these I was going to hang out with the friends that I disclosed to, the pastors. I was after they had fired me, we were going to hang out and do dinner together. And then they called and they were like, "You know what? We're really hurt too, bro." And because you, you know, you know, with addiction, it's like you pull the pin on a hand grenade and it's eventually going to go off and it's indiscriminate who like you can't control who the shrapnel hits, right? So my actions caused a lot of pain. And so they were like going, "Hey, you caused pain to us too, brother." And so like we need a break from you. And I was like I I was so like I felt such rejection and I just told I leaned I looked over to Heather and I said, "Heather, I feel like an ice pick to my my chest right now." You know, I was like my my friends and um she was standing at the window and this gets me emotional because um my son was nine. My oldest was nine at the time and she goes, "Hey, why don't you look outside, buddy?" And I looked outside and our house was kind of on a hill and I kid you not, it was like an afternoon sunbreak in the winter. In the winter we have what's called sunbreaks in Oregon. And [snorts] uh the sun was like it was like a spotlight from heaven on my 9-year-old and he's got his baseball glove on and he's throwing the ball up the hill and letting it roll back to him. He's he's playing pretend catch with somebody. That's that lazy I'm talking about that he got delivered from [laughter] because he was so obsessed with his own self, right? That'll make you lazy when you're just sitting there and she goes, "There's there's your friend right there." And and to this day since that in the last 13 years in our friend group, we're known as the family that adventures together. We're the Rose Five. We're We just added a a daughter-in-law, so we're the Rose Six now. Uh my my oldest just got married three weeks three weeks ago. But um it be a papa really soon. Yes sir. It but it changed the trajectory of of family. It of parenting of of our marriage just you know all six pillars of intimacy God just strengthened and it's like we were we were a new family. Yeah. Because and and just I'm telling you ruthless truthtelling. nothing hidden, nothing secret, nothing, you know, two years of counseling and then just constant, you know, check-ins and and we were just living this life fully in the open and and now I'm the same person. Yeah. That inongruency comes together. And um and then in the mix there, we meet meet a couple and they're like, "We're supposed to plant a church together." And I'm like, "I know. We're supposed to do it." So, a few years later, we did plant a church and it's been a completely redemptive 9 years ago. That's awesome. And um Yeah. So, where's the church at now? It's in Portland. Portland. Portland, Oregon. Portland, Oregon. And our friend um Jenny Donnelly started, she was doing women's events around the country. This was a couple years a few years into healing. She's like, "I think you're supposed to come with me and start sharing your story." I'm like, "Yeah, that makes total sense to to women. you know, groups of women. But I would tell my story of [clears throat] disclosure and of truthtelling of letting the light in and and women started sharing, you know, that they had had an abortion, sharing that they had been molested or abused by a sibling or they had been the abuser, they had molested and and so it was just like this revival of of of disclosure and honesty and so that people could actually allow to be healed, you know, and Then through that, you know, women started introducing me to their husbands who's like same story. And then men started coming out of the woodwork. And then pastors and leaders cuz we were now the safe ones. We were the ones sharing our story. [snorts] And and they're pulling us aside and being like, dude, that we have the same story like help, what do we do? So then we started we started just doing Zooms and and it's turned into a course now where we help couples that were That's amazing. kind of in that same whatever level of unwanted sexual behavior they're in, you know, we we kind of meet them there and and walk them through a journey. So, I'm proud of you guys. I mean, that's I've listened to this and I can want to I can see so much potential in what you're doing because it relates to so many people. Yeah. You know, we um me and the team here were talking about how we just we have to talk about sexual addiction in 2026 because it's I mean, it's up there. And it's just so much like other addictions. I mean, you can you could be um the guy that stopped at the liquor store on the way to the airport, but you just have to be the guy that stopped to get a massage because you're feeling that thought process. Y and there's a there's a there's a hint of drug in that thinking cuz when you're doing something wrong, it's like, oh, just getting away with this is cool. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. And it's a it's the devil hijacks what is good. Sex sex is so p be it's so beautiful and it's so powerful. You know, I think CS Lewis said it's so powerful because it's made in the shop of the master. Mhm. [clears throat] And it's it's so beautiful and it's so good and it's such a covenant, you know, ceremony, you know, in in a marriage. It's so powerful. And [snorts] so it when it's hijack it's hijacked and and I really believe and this is what I've been studying is the chemicals are hijacked. You know the sexual process and we don't talk about this a lot but it it begins with adrenaline is the first chemical that's released [snorts] and and in arousal and then it goes all the way through orgasm and all the way to you know the after goal the aftermath and there's there's a whole chemical process. It's it the the body it's it's amazing all the way from painkiller to relaxation to to what you know um just how God set this up like what it even does for the brain blood flow to the brain there's healing you know elements in that and so what I feel like in addiction is the enemy uses that same chemical process like you were saying for the the getting away with the the on the edge the dancing on the edge cuz you're still feeling that same chemicals. Mhm. No. So, it's almost euphoric. It's euphoric. And what what happens is in that pro process, you know, it's it's a um it's a demonic parody, you know, of of the real. And so, you know, in this in the process, it's like we that's why chemically, you know, our kids, well, kids, kids and adults are addicted to screens. So that same chemical process that was that was that was designed to bond us and connect us is is bonding people to screens or to um sexualized experiences and things like that. Sure. So it's just man it's um and so we're just trying to we're trying to expose that. We're we're trying to normalize the talk. I mean we talked about sexually discipling our kids and we've really tried to do that in our own family and of open honest dialogue with our children. I don't know exactly how my platform can do that other than saying um if people come to me and they want to reach out to you, is there is there a perfect way to reach out to you guys as a couple? Yeah, they can go to crossthe island.com. crossthe island.com. Yeah. And we have some courses coming up. We have a course for junior high and high school um young men that they can do with their parents or their youth leader. And then we have a a marriage course um again where it's it's pre-recorded and we get on for group coaching. It's a seven-week process to kind of kickstart people into this life of of disclosure crossing the island. Stop circumnavigating. Yeah. Um we just rolled out uh because Recovery Vow uh we're contracted through EXO, but we just rolled out um it's kind of like our education uh department called Recovery Vow Collective. So, we're doing the same thing, workshops and one-on-one coaching and things like that. I' I'd really like for you guys to think about beingcoming a part of that where you can coach these sexual addicted couples um that have had that kind of issue. Um and then we'll give you some tools and resources on using your stuff, using our stuff, and creating like a hybrid of how you're working with them maybe. Yeah, I think it'd be great. It's just a way to network. Yeah, we just I'm telling we just want to help more people, man. We we know so many couples are caught. You know, it takes the average couple 6 years of hell to to say something before they're like before they say help. And we just want to I want to normalize the the conversation and tell our testimony so many times that that it allows people to go, dude. Okay. I'm not the only one. Mhm. That's what they need to hear. I'm passionate about mom and dads being healthy so that their kids are healthy. And if we're raising children that are healthy with ruthless truthtelling, so they're letting the light in cuz the truth shall set us free and the truth is Jesus Christ, right? That is revival. That's where revival blows up in America. We've got these healthy families and these healthy children that grow into healthy adults and they have healthy families and then you just see this explosion of You hear his story, Heather, and he was 8 years old. Is that the age that you are thinking about where you're helping these kids? Oh yeah. Okay. Even earlier, I think if we can get to mom and dad and they go through their own journey of healing and then they have confidence when they're then helping their kids, their kids could be two, three, I mean, you can can sexually discip we can start sexually discipling our kids in in gender, in monogamy, in in all of these just just by little prompts that we that we that we speak to our kids and and um there's there's ways that we can be normalizing this conversation. Like I think a a big one, Eric, is kids need to know their parents' testimonies at age appropriate levels and more, you know, obviously as they get older, more of the story, but um we know so many couples who have never told their kids a thing. And so their kids are growing up and there might be parents are perfect potentially, you know, and and they're going, "Man, I don't want to let my parents down. I don't want to." So, we want to we want to teach parents too to um how to have a a family meeting, how how to have immunity zones where where the truth can come out and we can, you know, our kids know the difference between letting the light into every area and holding a secret. Yeah. So, um makes me think about sometimes when I hear my pastor on stage, he tells a private or personal story. Just way to relate and that's what I think you're saying there, too. You just want your kids to relate on a whole another level. A whole another level. Well, thank you guys so much for coming by the recovery about podcast. This is a different kind of recovery and you both are now in that kind of recovery. So, I want you to make sure you have a copy of this book. Um, now this book, I told you a little bit about it. It's written as a workbook. I ordered it. I have it. Oh, you already have it? Yes. Well, I want to make sure that you just remember that this is really written for your spouse. It's for them to help understand you guys are now in this