Sober but Still Unsafe - with Dave Willis
In this deeply honest episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast… We sit down with Dave Willis, marriage coach, pastor, and co-host of the Naked Marriage Podcast. Dave joins Eric Kennedy to unpack one of the most overlooked foundations of recovery: emotional safety. What starts as a conversation about rebuilding trust quickly reveals something deeper… why even after the addiction stops, the relationship can still feel broken. Eric and Dave take us inside the reality many couples face: the tension at home, the lack of trust, and the quiet distance that replaces connection. From hidden addictions and secrecy to the painful process of rebuilding trust “one drop at a time,” they expose how recovery isn’t just about quitting a behavior… It’s about becoming a safe person again. This episode is a wake-up call: you can be sober and still unsafe. And if your relationship doesn’t feel safe, nothing you build will last. Real recovery isn’t just about changing actions it’s about showing up with consistency, honesty, and presence… every single day. On This Episode:
Why emotional safety is the true foundation of recovery
How secrecy and unpredictability silently destroy trust
The “bucket vs. drops” analogy that explains rebuilding trust
Why defensiveness and tone can damage more than your actions
The difference between behavior change… and emotional consistency
Five pillars that create real safety in relationships
How small, daily actions rebuild connection over time
Connect with Dave and Ashley Willis:
Podcast: The Naked Marriage Podcast
Socials: @daveandashleywillis
Connect with us:
Socials: @RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com
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the people when we are in addiction or or hiding the things that we do. We have to recognize that there will be things
that we'll think about in our sobriety or or giving those things up that become triggers. But our life had become
unmanageable and now we are learning to manage life and recovery.
This month we're going to be talking about what makes all of that sustainable and through emotional safety and
security. Recovery cannot thrive where safety is missing. And progress
collapses when fear dominates the relationship. So let's talk about that for just a second. You are going to make
certain parts of your life are going to be different when you walk in recovery, when you walk through your marriage, when you walk through fatherhood, when
you walk through being a new employee. These people are going to see a new person kind of unveil themsself if you
will. Emotional safety is going to be mostly at home, you know, with your spouse specifically. I work with people
often and in that first, you know, few months, you know, you've burnt so many bridges that you you don't have trust
and emotionally it's going to be hard for you to connect sexually. Um, maybe
it's through trust, maybe it's, you know, like I said, in the bedroom, it could be they don't even trust you to go
to the grocery store because they don't know what you're going to buy and hide from them. So, as we go through this, I
want you to picture moments maybe um you put yourself in these situations. I know that I will. Um, and and probably still
to today, you know, I my wife asked me to uh turn on the app where she can see where I'm at at all times. Well, at
first I'm like, you don't trust me, you know, to know where I'm at. She said, "I don't." She said, "It's not about that."
She said, "I just want to know like when you're on the way home for dinner and things like that." So, emotionally, not only do the people that are in recovery
with us uh deal with it, we we as people in recovery deal with it. So, let's talk about part one, what emotional safety
really is. Well, I'll just say the uh the location thing. That's a big argument for a lot of couples of like, "Oh, no. I I don't
need to turn that on." And but I think it's wise for every couple to have that whether you're in recovery or not. I
just think living with transparency and like Kristen said, it's not even about not trusting. It's about just knowing
what's happening with each other, being connected, and and plus it does give us an extra
layer of accountability and safety, even if something were to happen to you and they could look and see where you were.
I just think every couple should should have that. Yeah, I agree with that. It took me a
while to to to be on board with it because I hadn't done anything. I was looking at it as a trust issue, not a um
not being just a compatible companion, if that makes sense. I was looking at it like, well, I'm not at the pool room.
I'm not out drinking beer. You you know, I'm leaving where where I work at and coming home. And she said, it's again,
it's not about that. So, it's it's rebuilding things even though uh I've
been in recovery for a while now. So what emotional safety really is? Emotional safety really means that you
can speak honestly in a conversation just like that. You can admit weakness.
So for me I was admitting that I was unsure of why they were asking that. But then it gives them an opportunity to say
well this is why I was asking that. You can express pain in that. So in those times where we have where we're having
discussions and maybe it is a hard conversation. Hard conversations need to happen at the right time. I often think
that hard conversations, the best time to have that is maybe after sex. I talk actually, and I know this is very
transparent, but after you um have sex with your partner, you know, there's a lot of barriers has been taken down. Um
and and it needs to be a time where it's not like where it's just planned sex. It was like it was organic and and things happened.
And I she asked me about certain things the other day and and I'm like, you
know, this this was the perfect time for you to ask about that because I wasn't going to get mad about anything,
right? Yeah. You're in a blissful state. It's it's it's great.
Yeah, you are. And um and and people early in recovery, you know, you won't
maybe have that in the beginning because you're rebuilding all of this this broken trust and this these these
emotional barriers that have been put up, these these guard rails that have been put up. And so when you do find the
time to have these these uh honest conversations and you can admit weakness and what I what I mean by admitting
weakness is you can go back to maybe that bridge that you burned and talk about that. I wouldn't bring it up at
five o'clock in the afternoon when you guys are first getting home from work and you got kids or whatever. I I wouldn't bring it up when you're paying
bills for the month. I would bring it up when you are in a in a moment together. Maybe it's on a date night. Um maybe you
did make her laugh about something or you made him laugh about something. You got to find that time and and and be
vulnerable. Express the pain and uh without fear of punishment, ridicule or abandonment. So uh when safety um is
present, conversations deepen, accountability strengthen and intimacy grows. Now I
can't tell you as a uh I am not a marriage expert or a sex expert, but what I can tell you is intimacy will
grow. I can't tell you how often or what that means for you, but I would say
this. Married couples, and I hope I don't get this wrong, Dave, you can correct me. I think married couples
often sometimes um plan out sex because of life. Like it could be happening, you
know, just in the living room. Hey, let's just go to the bedroom and and then we'll come back and watch our show. Maybe I'm wrong, but um and I don't
think people count how many times during the week. I don't know. Um
yeah. Well, if anybody's counting, it's the spouse that feels like it's not happening enough, right? Cuz they're
they're like tallying it up. is it's like almost ammunition of like, see, we only did it x amount of times over the
last, you know, weeks or whatever. Um, but yeah, in busy seasons though,
sometimes it is just grabbing the moment when it comes. It's it's like, hey, we got 20 minutes before we have to be
somewhere. 20 minutes. you want to make the most of uh [laughter] this time or we got 10
minutes or we've got um you know we got a little window here or putting on the calendar saying hey like
let's make sure that Tuesday nights we're going to have some mommy daddy time
um and hopefully it'll happen more than that but at the very least we're going to know that like it's protected that
night we're going to make we're not going to make excuses uh and I know that doesn't sound that
that romantic but it can be practical and really busy seasons. But I I love the bigger point here is about emotional
safety. When when when one or both spouses doesn't feel emotionally safe with the other, then I mean your your
sex life is going to be one of the many casualties of that. And you might still be having sex, but you're you're not
going to be truly making love connecting mind, body, soul, you know, the way that God designed the gift of sex to work.
And you really in marriage need all of that. And the marriage bed has to be the safest place on earth for both of you.
And for it to feel safe for both of you, there has to be trust, transparency, vulnerability.
and that that emotional safety. And for women especially, men need it too, but for women especially, um feeling safe
with their husband, emotionally and physically safe is uh is is a non-negotiable
as it relates to well really all parts of marriage, but but specifically for her to be in the mindset to to make
love. If she doesn't feel emotionally safe or connected, that's going to be the last thing on her mind. And so you
you build emotional safety not just for your sex life, but um but your sex life
is one of the many reasons why you need to do it. Yeah. You know, there's not uh anything taught in recovery about about sex and
sex life uh or intimacy or um there's some emotional safety and I even talk about it in in the book marriage after
addiction. But a lot of times I'll tell people to not change too much in that first year. here. Now, I'm not saying go
without sex in that first year, but from a from your point of view and and if I
had to take it and make it like a hybrid of recovery point of view, um uh the spouse that was going through the
addiction, would you encourage them after a certain amount of time to start planning like a romantic night, not a
schedule thing, but like a surprise night, if that makes sense, where you can have that deeper conversation after
it was planned or you can have that that accountability, you know, moment where you can have that discussion because you
know you've torn those walls down. I think that's really wise and I I think being the one to take initiative to
pursue your spouse's heart and trust, not just to pursue them sexually, but really to just to pursue serving them
and connecting with them and rebuilding trust with them. Because in addiction, whatever the addiction, whether it's a
substance or a process addiction, you're you're chasing you're chasing the next high, whatever that high looks like. And if if
you're not careful, you can replace whatever that high was with trying to
almost use your spouse in a sexual way to just get that next high. You know,
the orgasm becomes becomes an acceptable high. And and of course, it's a gift and
sex is supposed to feel good. God designed it that way. But if your spouse starts feeling used, like, wait a
second, I just feel like you're just looking for a hit. you're not looking for real connection here, then um then
that's going to take a deep toll on the trust and the emotional safety in the relationship. And so again, like you
said, I'm not saying don't have sex at all, but you need to be really delicate about it as you're rebuilding trust. It
takes it takes time for trust to be rebuilt, for safety to come again. And
um the only way to do it is through consistency. Being consistent in your words, your actions, pursuing your
spouse to serve them, not just for what they can do for you. Um and then when sex happens organically as a result of
that, then it's going to be it's going to be natural. It's going to be mutually enjoyable. Um but you just need to be
patient. If if your if your spouse, the the the non-addicted spouse is a little
reluctant at first, don't judge them for that. Don't don't yell at them or whatever. Just be patient and understand
that they're they're wounded. Yeah. And there and some your addiction caused some of those wounds and you'll get
through it together, but it's a process. Yeah. No, I I completely agree with you.
Um we talk uh in and in the book Marriage After Addiction, we talk about marking your time in sobriety. Like, you
know, we get these chip systems when I hit 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Um you and Ashley are really good about doing
date night. uh uh date night maybe weekly would um [clears throat]
and I guess depending on the workload and the the availability and the trust. Um is that something you would
encourage? I'm sure you're going to say yes, but how important is that date night that you that you have created?
Oh, it's been a lifeline, especially when the kids were were younger. Um which is when it was hardest to get away
because you needed, you know, child care. We've never lived close by to family, so child care takes extra
effort, but it's so worth the effort. And uh in those really hectic, stressful
seasons with young ones at home and and that's a beautiful season, too. But you need to you need to make time for each
other as as husband and wife, or else you're just going to become a kid kid- centered household where the kids are
going to grow up and leave, and then you're looking at your spouse and realizing this is a stranger. I don't even know this person anymore. So stay
connected. Um, make it consistent. Ideally, get out once a week. I know
there are some seasons where that's maybe not practical, but we've we've tried throughout our marriage to really
stay with stay with that that timeline. Uh, for us now that our boys are older, you know, it's it's it's easier for us
to just sneak out and grab a quick dinner and come back. And I mean, we can we can do things like that now, even a
couple times a week, cuz we don't need a babysitter anymore. So, it's a totally different reality. But for those of you who need child care, I'd say plan it
out. If you can't really afford a babysitter, find another couple that you're close to that have kids similar
ages and work out some kind of child care swap like, "Hey, can I drop my kids off over here once a week?" And then you
do the same at our house next week and let's go back and forth so we can we can uh have some time away. Um it's one of
the best things you can do for your marriage. And and it's actually one of the best things you can do for your kids. If your kids grow up seeing you
prioritizing their marriage, that's a great gift to give to them. And it's something that the person
that's in the addiction or in in recovery that was in addiction, if they can if they can take the torch and carry
that and and do the planning for that. So, it's not something that the spouse has to do. That's that's really good,
Dave. All right. So that that brings me to this this point um next about when safety is absent, defensiveness
increases, withdrawal escalates, tone can harden, and silence replaces connection. These are a few things that
you and I just talked about. You know, you start looking at this person sitting in the couch next to you or the recliner
next to you and you're like, who who is this? You know, it's because it's complete silence now. But um you know
through the through the hard times in that that first um few months of being
in recovery. So if I'm talking about the first 12 months of of walking in recovery with your spouse, you know, my
goal is that you know as an individual and as a couple, you find ways to um to
use Recovery Vow, the collective, our our our network to be supplemental to go along with what you're doing. So, I
would say find a program that works for you, connect with people like David Ashley that can walk with you through certain things. Um, but what what that
does with these tools that we're trying to give you is it it helps you understand you're you're you've got to
negotiate uh and control your defensiveness and and and not let that be a thing. Withdrawal that escalates
or or or pulls away just because you burnt that bridge. um they're they're probably going to be um you know upset
with you over a certain amount of time. And I know for me, this is something that I dealt with and and I don't deal
with it as much anymore. I don't know where the words come from before they come out here, but the way the weight of
the tone sets the tone in the house sometimes. So, the tone of my words
doesn't have to be a cuss word. It doesn't have to be the tone can cut my spouse. And that's just the way she's
built in her DNA. Um and I and I often say I'm sorry um for that more than
anything else, you know. Um but tone matters a ton.
Yeah, it really it really does. And a lot of us guys didn't even know we had a tone until we got married, right?
Because uh but you get you get in a relationship with someone you really care about and you realize, oh man, my
tone can be sharp. It can be sarcastic. It can be dismissive. It can be a lot of things where I might say something that's
technically true, but if I say it with a tone that's disrespectful, then I'm still wrong. It's still it's still
hurtful. And so, I think that's a great point, Eric, is watching our words, but also just just watching our our tone,
watching our the expression on our face, watching our body language, because all of those communicate, and all of those
are factors in our spouse feeling safe around us and loved around us or feeling unsafe. I'll use this as an example and
I've told this and used this in many different scenarios. I actually use it uh recently with a guy that works for me
back in the day in the 90s. I love the Cosby Show and it was when Vanessa brought home this guy that she just got
married to, Dabnes. And Dabas got her this ring and just popped like popped in
at dinner and said, "You know, I'm I work as a as a mechanic or a facilities guy at at this college where I met her.
He's like 12 years older and um and Bill Bill Cosby was there or Cliff Huxable
was there at the dinner table and he was hearing the story and and Bill or Cliff
said um you know you could be a maintenance man, you could be a banker, you could be the president of whatever
and we would still not like you. And he really got his attention and he used this this this statement. He said, "I
tell you what, we're eating dinner right now. Did what did you like about dinner?" He said, "I I I like the fish sticks. They were pretty good. He's
like, "No, no, no, no, no. Like, when you have a dinner, what do you want to eat?" He said, "I like a steak and
potatoes and a salad." She He's like, "Perfect. Take that steak, that salad, that potatoes. It looks good. It It
sounds good. It's going to come across well, maybe." But what she did is she didn't deliver that steak and potatoes,
you on a plate. She She took the garbage can lid and turned it upside down and served it to us like that. That's how
she brought you here. And so it kind of goes I use that a lot with tone. You can be of service and get the job done. You
can be the steak and the potatoes and and and do all these things, but it's how you deliver it. It it made me think
about Kristen. I mean, I use that a lot. And I'm like, "Babe, I didn't mean to bring that to you on a trash can lid.
I'm going to I'll bring it better on a plague next time." And it's just accountability. So, we want to keep that. We want to keep the withdrawal um
from escalating. We want to keep the tone down. And we want to silence um we want silence to not replace our
connection. The key teaching point from that is that if your relationship doesn't feel safe, nothing else you
build will last. Now that's that's hard for people to to grip, but I I just want to read it one more time. If your
relationship doesn't feel safe, nothing else you build will last. So you have to
create safety in the home. A lot of times that's the that's the guy's responsibility whether you're in the
recovery or you're the supporting spouse. um our job is to lead our family, go to church, um and and support
our kids, support our wife. That is something that we have to do. Now, it is vice versa. I think we'll get that back
from our spouse. As we move into part two, I want to talk about why emotional
safety breaks down. Addiction damages safety through uh these four points.
Secrecy, unpredictability, emotional vitality, and broken trust.
Secrecy was something that I had in my addiction. You wouldn't see where I had the liquor bottles hidden at. They were
folded up in my jeans in my closet or they were under the seats in my car. I even kept one under the car seat in the
back. Um, and I had to carry that because I had to balance those lies and never let anybody see inside of this
other person that I was when I wasn't around people. Um what made that um
secrecy hard is because it also kind of bled over to the unpredictability that I could I would get defensive if I thought
you may catch on to that or if you didn't understand that or not understand it but we're maybe going to find that
out and then that just broke trust. It's hard to bounce back from that. Um
secrecy a lot of a lot of love um a lot of a lot of a lot of things um die when
they live in secrecy. So, just be honest. Um, and I find ways often, um,
again, I'm not perfect at my marriage, but if I can make my wife laugh, and again, I go back to the the the tracking
on the phone or whatever there. I'm not hiding any secrets now, but I feel like that was a test of secrecy like you like
you thought I might be doing something, but it really wasn't. It was something totally different. Um, unpredictability
is something I think we'll all face at some point. um you're going to have life
throw these life curveballs at you. And so I I remember Dave telling me this um
when we when he did our wedding and then when I asked him for the 10 things, a good marriage is often um one spouse
being stronger when the other one's weak. And so unpredictability, we don't need to both be weak at the same time.
We need we need to be uh strong for the other one. But um emotionally and broken
trust is is tough. Uh once you've broken that trust and and you cause this
absence of emotional safety, it's going to take time to get trust back. This is not an overnight thing and it's not
going to come from an apology. It's going to be it's going to come from a living amends. Now, I'm speaking from the point of reference uh from a
recovery standpoint, a process addiction or a sex addiction or um you know, an
alcohol or drug addiction. Uh Dave, I don't want to, you know, share your story, but I know that you had an issue with porn
addiction. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about what what time do you think the time
frame for that kind of um rebuilding trust with Ashley? Did it it wasn't
overnight, right? you had to make an amends to her and and live out those amends. Yeah, I absolutely did. Um, you know,
because I was I was living with with secrecy around that issue uh that it
started when I was a teenager before I'd even met Ashley and and uh and I just it had been an on-again off-again addiction
that I would fall back into and just thought that I could beat it on my own that I didn't need accountability or
help or support or community um or that I I felt like I could control it. Uh but you know, like step one, I I
I finally realized my life had gotten out of control. Um and I was really
really in the thick of it, uh fairly early into our marriage. And I wish I'd had the courage to come out and confess
it to Ashley before she found it. But um that's not how it happened. She she found where I'd been looking. This was
before the days of smartphones. This was back when we had big clunky desktop computers. And uh she she found where
I'd been. he was exposed to these these images uh which I hate I hate that for her. I hate I just hate the whole the
whole thing. Um and and trust was really wounded. You know, it's been said um
trust is built in drops and lost in buckets, you know. So, that's good. Yeah. So, I I try to think about that a
lot that I I you know, I dumped out a bunch of a whole bucket load of trust that day. Uh but she really had the
grace to come alongside me. And forgiveness isn't saying like, "Hey, it
doesn't you didn't hurt me." Forgiveness is really handing somebody the bucket back and saying, "I'm going to give you a chance to fill this back up and I'm
going to walk with you as we do." And she did that and and it was a messy process. I mean, I know there was at least one relapse and then, you know,
started the process over and and it was it was messy, but she um she was so full
of grace. it. But she was also, you know, I was a great balance of having grace, not beating me over the head, not
not adding shame to what I was already feeling, but also like, you know, insisting on healthy boundaries,
insisting on accountability, which were needed. And she did both. And I think I think most people probably heer on kind of one
extreme or the other there, like the the grace people that are just you can do no wrong. Um there's no no accountability.
I'm just going to just you keep doing your thing. And of course that just leads to enablement. Um and
then the other people where there's no grace is just beating you over the head, never letting you forget it. Um checking
in on you every two minutes. And and when there's no grace, then that person feels like I just can't. It's
smothering. You know, it's like I I can't survive in this. And so finding the balance and Jesus really is the
balance. I mean, when you we look at the way that he had grace and truth, uh he
just he he showed what that looks like, you know, love and justice and all
happening at the same time. Uh that's that's what we all need whether we're in recovery or not. And that's what she
showed me as I was walking out of that addiction. And I'm thankful so thankful that she she responded that way
even though I mean it was it was still messy. I don't want to sugar coat it. It was it was a it was a process. But now
we're able to help other couples and other individuals who are walking through different forms of sex addiction
or pornography issues. And that a lot of people I mean a lot of people are are in
that world right now. And so we get to use our experience to help bring hope to others. just Eric like you know you're
doing on a much you know a much bigger way really with with the recovery community specifically helping through
your story. And so for people listening that are maybe still in the thick of whatever their their addiction is just
know you're you're going to get through this. You know keep taking those steps. Just listening or watching this today is
is one more step in the right direction. And one day on the other side when you've experienced healing and sobriety
and um all that you're working towards, if you choose, you'll be able to use
your story to give help and healing to other people, whether it's somebody you sponsor um or whether it's, you know, on
a bigger bigger scale, but your story won't be wasted. No, that's good. And I love that you use
the analogy of the bucket. You you emptied the bucket. Sometimes I use that, you know, sometimes people buckets
get full before it like overflows and you can only handle so much stress, but it was kind of the opposite here. So,
you got to refill that bucket and it's that one drop at a time. I love that. And so, this [clears throat] kind of
that that analogy leans into this next point. After betrayal or repeated hurt,
partners become hyper alert. And so that hyper alertness is is is those drops
that you're trying to to get back into that bucket in an ex um to an an extent.
Same thing here. Small tone shifts can feel threatening. So how can you change
those tone shifts that we talked about and turn those into drops of the the restoration um in the bucket that you're
you're trying to refill? And conversations become about protection instead of connection. And I don't think
that's a drop in the bucket. And I think then you're taking cups and and and if this was a drum, you're actually really
filling it in there because yeah, I think all women want to talk about it.
Um where we as men, I would say, you know, 90% of the time aren't good at
talking. Um and and I'm just maybe speaking for folks in recovery. No, no, I think there's a lot of
accuracy and it's a generalization, but it does hold true most of the time just in how we're wired up differently.
Yeah. as men and women. But in those conversations, we are rebuilding this emotional safety that
we're talking about today. It's tone shift conversation and understanding what is is what you've did that creates
triggers for them that you're trying to figure out how to balance the triggers that you have too that you don't have
relapses. I don't want relapses to be a part of, you know, walking in sobriety. Sometimes people say that your your your
choice of being sober from whether it's sexual addiction like pornography or whether it's drug and alcohol addiction.
Really think through if I click on this tonight or if I drink this tonight, what does tomorrow morning look like? Don't
just don't do it. You know, easier said than done, but I just I don't want people to to have that. So,
yeah, it's it's never worth it to go to go back. You know, it's it's uh there's a there's this verse in Proverbs in the
Bible that that sticks in my head because it it uses kind of gross imagery on purpose and it says just like a dog
returns to lick up its vomit. Uh so a fool repeats their foolish behavior, you
know, and and I've been I've been that dog, you know, where you you know, for me like the puke, the gross stuff was
the pornography and I would stay away from it for a while and realize that that's gross. there's nothing good
there. But then I would find myself like an animal returning to it. And when we when we choose to go back to relapse,
um, you know, it's that's what we're doing. I mean, just the thing that this is this is vomit that I'm returning to,
and I'm not going to feel good about this the next day, that my relationships aren't going to be stronger the next day if I if I do this. So just trying to
keep that perspective and and in terms of like the talking and rebuilding the emotional connection. Um I I I try to
think of it like this, you know, if when when trust is broken, it's sort of like when an arm or a leg is broken. When you
break an arm or a leg, you have to put a cast on it and you have to temporarily
limit your activity. not to punish yourself, but to protect what's been
wounded so that it can heal. You know, you can't you have to take a bath. You can't take a shower because you can't
get it wet. You you can't, you know, go go lift weights on it yet. There's just certain things that aren't wrong to do,
but you're you got to willingly give those up for a while because things are so fragile. And when you've broken
trust, I think the person who's broken it needs to be willing to voluntarily
restrict some of their own activities. um just in that that process kind of
like the process of wearing a cast in the short term of saying like, hey, you know, like I'm going to whatever that
looks like to you, you know, I'm not going to go to these places at all. Maybe they're not like bad places to go,
but but by going there, it could be triggering or or temptation could happen or I'm I'm not going to get with these
certain people or I'm not going to, you know, use my my phone past a certain
time, whatever that looks like. um to be to willingly do that. Again, not not out
of like self-punishment of saying like I want to live with so much transparency that especially in the short term when
things are so fragile to just let you know, hey, like I'm all in on this and as we move forward, then some of those
freedoms will come back. Um but even then, I want to live with transparency. You know, I want I want you to have no
reason not to to trust me. There's no no part of my life that's off limits to you. No, that's that's really good. really
good, Dave. Um, as we wrap up on part two here, before we go to part three,
um, I want people to hear this. This is, um, this is the key idea take away from
from what we just talked about on the breakdown of why emotional safety does
break down. Safety is not rebuilt automatically when behavior improves. It must be rebuilt intentionally. Trust is
rebuilt through behavior. Safety is rebuilt through emotional consistency. So everything that Dave and I just
talked about letting you guys have a peak inside of our lives, this is pretty much it in in three bullet points. Trust
is rebuilt through behavior. So we had to recognize the changes that we need to make and do that. It's not through an
apology. It's rebuilt through emotional consistency. Remember the drops in the bucket. Uh sometimes it's a drop, maybe
it's a cup, but those those emotional consistencies will fill that bucket back up. and the safety that your spouse or
you or your family feel um specifically your spouse and what we're talking about today um automatically return when
behavior improves and it must be rebuilt intentionally. Let's move on to part three. In part three, we're going to
talk about five pillars of emotional safety. Now, we'll spend about 10 minutes on this. Um but I'm I'm going to
read out these uh five things really really quick and then we'll kind of go back over it. Uh the five are presence,
honesty, curiosity, boundaries, and kindness. All right. So,
let's talk about presence for just a second. Presence is staying emotionally engaged when discomfort rises. Not
checking out, not escaping. That means to me, when I hear that, um I'll just be
honest with you. Right now, my wife and I, we are watching two different shows or I may be in Tik Tok land while she's
watching a show or something. So, um, emotionally, she wants us to have a show together. It it brings whether I enjoy
it or not, she just wants to see me in the chair. She doesn't want a roommate in a few years when all the kids are
gone. She wants us to have had built something um a reason that we're spending that time together. So,
presence is is going to be important, not checking out, not escaping. Now I will say this and I learned this by
going through mediation is when you are having a hard conversation or an argument whatever it is have your word
where you need to separate. Now that would be when presence needs to be you know you know step away and then come
back. But safety grows when your partner knows that I'm staying. I'm here for you
and and and in whatever way that you live your life. They just they just need to see that.
Yeah. Um honesty. [gasps] Now, this is a big one because we've
been, you know, uh, often, and I'm talking to my recovering addicts, male or female. Um, you got to start talking
the truth. You have to tell the truth the first time. Don't hide in the secrecy. Don't don't don't let something
that you that you're doing after dark when you're spouse is in asleep. Don't
be doing those things that you used to do. Um, minimi don't no minimizing, no
hiding. You know, be transparent. If they want to see where you are, share location. If they want to call you, I
remember Dave saying this too when we did the 10 things. When your wife calls or when your husband calls, answer the
phone as quickly as you can. Um, and if I'm giving you uh, again, this is
supplemental, like we want to give you these tools to go along with what you're already doing. But if you're going through a 12step program and you're on
step 10, this is where you would step 10 someone. If you've wronged them,
honestly and quickly admit it as as soon as you can because as soon as you get out in front of that, it it has nowhere
to live. It doesn't have to come back home with you. It doesn't have to, you know, be here or here for the rest of
the day. So that honesty goes even deeper than just, you know, telling truth. Um, but that's honesty.
curiosity, uh asking before assuming, uh listening before defending, and
seeking to understand um emotional meaning, not just the facts. Okay? So, our spouses um may
define what the expectation is going to be um after a conversation, before a
conversation. Um, so when you're going into these kind of conversations, you can already maybe have a plan of action
for um what what you know, what are you thinking about? What's got you curious about this? You know, you know, some
people may be curious um after a relapse like what is the next month going to look like for us? Um uh and and it's g
all this sounds super easy. I I realize that as as I'm talking because I keep thinking back to my own home life and I
think about what people will deal like in the real world. Curiosity lowers defensiveness uh and assumption can
escal uh escalate and you know what what happens when people assume something you know you
know the the breakdown of that word. Oh yeah sure. But but you know the curiosity don't
don't live in the curiosity. I think we could also replace curiosity here with anxiety. Um, I I I can be an anxious
person and so can my wife if if we're if we're in our own thoughts. So have
conversation, you know, eliminate the the curiosity. [snorts] And that kind of funnels to the next one, which is
boundaries. Clear agreements, defined expectation, consistent follow-through,
and revisiting boundaries when they're needed. Safety increases when both partners know what is okay and what is
not okay. And all that comes with time. you know, these clear expectations.
Um, again, the location thing, I said yes to that because it gave a clear
expectation that I'm on her side. I see where she's coming from. I let my guard down enough to say, "This is why it
meant so much to her." um I follow through with that and I can say
there's things that I expect from my wife because we share certain um I don't
want to say chores but task and ownership around our household like you know when we get paid this is what I
need you to be responsible for. This is what I need you to budget. You know, you start having these these real conversations that'll take place that
maybe they didn't take place when you were in addiction. Yeah. Um because now you're this new person and and and you're you're
managing not only your life but your life with your spouse and your kids. Uh or maybe that you're listening to this
and you're managing it with with your family. You know, maybe you're with your your with your parents or or you're a
parent listening to this. Um and you're creating these boundaries for for children.
You know, set those clear expectations. Um in the beginning, don't give me a
whole lot of choices. um give me one or two choices that I can make the right decision out of one or two opportunities
if that makes sense. And and and that builds trust from from the person giving those choices, but it also builds trust
from the person that's making the decision. Um and so that just creates the constant followthrough and and just
understanding that those boundaries aren't punishments. This is it's a rebuilding of walking through your amends. I think we we kind of give that
word a bad rap like like oh wait that seems restrictive but no it's it's freeing. Good boundaries are freeing. I
mean if you're like a a sports guy like imagine how chaotic and pointless a
football game or a basketball game would be if there was no out of bounds markers. Like if there weren't lines saying you
know where where where was out of bounds. I mean you could just run a mile in the wrong direction. The game would
be complete chaos. And life is chaos, marriage is chaos, uh recovery is chaos
if there aren't if there aren't boundaries. And so, um, there's a there's a really great book called
Boundaries, um, by doctors John Townsen and Henry Cloud. And, uh, fairly early in our
marriage, um, somebody handed us that book cuz we were, um, and helped not only with like porn recovery, but we
were going through some really difficult, you know, family relationship issues and there was a lot going on.
That book really helped. And so I would just say uh there there are resources out there on that topic in particular.
If you get that one's I think the hardest one to get right, but if you get it right, man, it's it's so freeing,
right? And there's it's kind of like being in process. You'll be in process of understanding boundaries for for the duration of your marriage, probably.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep. Uh the last one is kindness. Uh kindness again, tone matters um more
than con content. Repair quickly when you miss it. Like I said, that's a step a step 10 thing. Uh the sooner you get
out in front of that, um you you just you own it. Um and kindness makes
vulnerability possible. So be as kind, be as funny, be as supportive as
possible, but you being gentle in your tone and in your demeanor and in your
understanding. Again, this is easier said than done, especially if you're fresh into uh recovery and maybe you're
just a couple of days out of addiction. You're not going to understand all this, but I want you to watch this over and
over and over again to kind of get an idea of I've been it for 16 years. Dave's been in a different type of recovery for a
certain amount of time. We are giving you personal insight and our thoughts on
why this matters. Your recovery um is going to create everything we're talking
about. Your recovery is going to create an open kindness inside of your heart. It's going to uh open up the the
boundaries. and why that means uh a sense of security. It's going to eliminate secrecy. All these different
things we've kind of talked about all goes back to rebuilding the emotional support you need from your spouse, not
your roommate. And if you are watching this and you are roommating with someone that you plan on getting married, I want
you to go out and ask them to marry you this weekend. I don't know where that just came from, but just go ahead and do it. All right. So, um here's how we
bring all of this together in uh summary. Presence keeps you engaged.
Honesty removes uncertainty. Curiosity lowers defensiveness. Just kind of takes away that anxiety. Boundary creates
protection. Your kindness makes vulnerability possible. So safety first, honest second. Everything else will
follow. Um our last um part four is just
the application of all of this. So, as we transition uh into this last part, uh
if emotional uh safety is this important, we can't leave it vague. We
need a way to measure it and strengthen it. But as we close, I want to recap this month. Emotional safety is the
foundation of recovery. Um and it is built through repeated calm, predictable
behavior. It requires both partners' participation and it grows through small consistent changes. The core reminder is
that people open up where they feel safe. And and I know this for Kristen, having that conversation after an
intimate moment the other day, she was very safe. She knew I was very happy and um we could have a conversation that
maybe we wouldn't have had or wouldn't have been a good time at at 9:00 at night, you know, and so she's guarding
my emotional um safety as much as she's guarding her own. She's she's learning
to read me and I'm I'm learning to read her. But as we think back through all of this, I want people that listen to this
to to download these workbook to download the workshops, to download the quizzes. Um, it is it's going to be
important for you to not score your spouse. It is about taking responsibility for the safety that you
bring. This is not, oh, I got 100 on this test and you didn't. These are these are things for you to sit down and
do together. Just like marriage after addiction, a workbook that you sit down and one spouse has their own copy and
you have and they have their own you have your own copy and and then you circle back up and you and you do these
certain things together. So your action steps when you do these these um these use these tools um I want you to
complete the assessment this week. Go through and actually um print that out or you maybe you can do it digitally but
uh do the assessment this week. Have one structured conversation and it may need to be planned. Maybe you're so uh new
into this that it needs to be a planned like I said timing is of importance and tone is too. Um and then streng
strengthen one pillar intentionally and I want uh just because Dave gave us this
advice and idea um if you can get away I want you to create a date night where maybe you can do this and bring it to
the table. You know a lot of conversation happens over cup of coffee or a meal and so maybe you do it in the
morning where you get up earlier you can do it there. if you can't create that date night, but I just would highly encourage I'm going to do this myself
because we need more date nights. Um, create a date night this week. Get a babysitter. Ask ask of like Dave said,
you know, the shared responsibilities of uh of kids about the same age and and figure out a way that you can you can go
and and spend time with your spouse and really talk about some of the things we talked about in our past months of the
collective uh leading up to this month in our collective. I want you to go back and check out everything inside of the
collective from our first, second, third, fourth installment monthly from the different things we talked about.
You can use the code 50 off for 50% off of your first month. And you can message us with your questions and feedback. We
do want to hear from you. I want to know from you personally if this is landing well and if you're receiving it and it
is a practicality practical enough for you to use it. And if there are things that you would love for hear me to talk
about more or a different guest you'd like to have me to talk to, please send me anything. I'm I'm so transparent,
open, bring it. And then share the collective with a friend. If you have someone that you know needs this and
maybe they're early into it and they can't afford it, we are a nonprofit. I would love to um make a donation to them
and uh make sure that they get some tools in their hands to help them walk through that. Dave, I do want to just
say you you brought a lot to the table today. I think we've got a lot of content we can we can create a nice
podcast from this that we will put out and that will be out for our listeners to hear for free uh outside of the
collective, but it'll be a way for us to to get some folks to join the collective and hear, you know, more in detail about
what we talked about. Is there any closing uh thoughts that you would want
to share uh from a really from a marriage standpoint uh that's practical
that people can do? Um maybe they're fresh in recovery or they've got years
in. What would be some three points? Give me three points as we close. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for those in
recovery, those not in recovery, just those who want to build a strong marriage. I mean, the recipe, the God-given recipe for a strong marriage,
it works. It works 100% of the time. And um it works even though you're imperfect
and your spouse is imperfect if you'll uh if you'll treat each other with a lot of grace. And there's gosh, there's so
many principles that that build it. But I'll I'll throw out uh just a few. I would say um communicate about
everything like just little things, big things. Bring your spouse in to every
decision. Bring your spouse into what's on your mind. Uh your hopes, your fears, your dreams, your insecurities, uh all
of it. Just connect as much as you can. Um and check in with each other. A
little short conversations. Um, as [clears throat] you're communicating, never have an argument over text message
because, you know, we talked about tone, we talked about body language, all those things. Anything that's really
important, you need to talk about with your spouse face to face because otherwise things could get lost in
translation, miscommunicated, and uh, and these couples that just type out these page long text message arguments
to each other trying to We're all guilty of that. Yeah. Well, it just it's it's easy to do
to get in that mode, but it really doesn't help. You know, we found it just doesn't help. So, just just try to to
stop stop doing that, I guess, is one thing. Prioritize fun together. You know, we we talk about how marriage can
be can be hard at times, and life is hard at times, but but even in the midst of it, like our marriage should have joy
and playfulness and fun. And I'm I'm convinced that laughter is like is like a glue that holds people together. I
mean, laughing together with your spouse, I think, can be as binding as sex. I mean, it's it's uh it's a gift.
It's a gift from God. Yep. I totally agree with you on that. One of the chapters in the book that that we put out is is all about letting
laughter return to the marriage. I can't agree with you more on that. I know that I aggravate the crap out of my
wife sometimes when I'm like, but I feel the most confident and I can be myself.
Like Joe can make her laugh. I think that is so important. Oh yeah. It takes the walls down as long
as you're not laughing at each other but with each other. I'll give you one quick funny story because it's kind of recovery related. And uh when I was when
I was a kid, like 7 years old, they were doing this don't drink and drive campaign on TV, but they never specified
that they were talking about alcohol. And at seven, I didn't know what alcohol was. I just thought it meant drinking
anything and driving. And so I was on this like scout trip and our scout leader was drinking Sprite the whole
time he was driving. And when we got back from the trip, like I told the other leaders that he'd been drinking
and driving the whole trip and it's it created this whole like uh you know inquisition and [laughter] stuff until I
had to kind of like come testify and they were like, "You said he was drinking and driving." I'm like, "He was he was drinking Sprite the whole time."
Yeah. I see Dave. I can see little Dave just walking down [laughter] the school bus and just knocking uh
juice boxes out of people's hands. That's right. Don't drink it. I see Chris Farley from uh uh the the
Adam Sandler movie driving the [laughter] just knocking juice boxes out like you
can't drink and drive. So, but yeah, don't drink and drive. But I I wish those commercials would have specified
that uh it wasn't referring to all liquid, just alcoholic beverages. Yeah. Well, man, hey, I thank you so much for
joining us on on this call today. And I always have looked up to you and uh I appreciate you being my friend for for
so many years now. And for you, for those of you that don't know, Dave gave me my two-year chip. He also married my
wife and I. And he's just been a part of my recovery. And so, it kind of goes back to um what we talked about today,
that that emotional safety can also come from a good small group of people. So, if you have a good small group of people around you that care about you, uh,
stick with them and and replace the ones that that shouldn't be in your life. But Dave is one of those ones that needs to be in your life. So, thank you so much,
buddy. Man, I I love you, bro. I'm so proud of what you're doing. And, uh, it's an honor to call you a friend and and for
all those listening, guys, support Recovery Val. This is such a worthwhile uh, organization. And, uh, and it just
just by listening, you're part of changing the world. But if you can do more than that, if you can actually support it in some way, it's going to
have a multiplying effect. You're you're going to help a lot of people. Thank you so much, buddy. And and for those I need to tee you up, too. If if
you guys haven't checked out the Naked Marriage podcast, Dave and Ashley have the Naked Marriage Podcast back out back
up and running. Please go check that out. Follow, subscribe, uh on all their platforms. And uh Dave, I'll see you
I'll see you Sunday at church. All right, my friend. I'll see you then.