When Love is Overshadowed by Fear - with Jeremy Hinote
When trust is broken, even a simple touch can feel unsafe. In this powerful and honest episode, Eric sits down with Jeremy Hinote, a counselor and founder of Savannah River Counseling, to unpack what happens when couples try to rebuild intimacy after addiction. What seems like “getting back to normal” can quickly turn into something deeper… learning how to feel safe again. Jeremy breaks down the four layers of intimacy:
Emotional
Conversational
Experiential
Physical
Most couples try to fix the last one first. But when trust is broken, even a simple touch can feel unsafe. What once felt like connecting now creates distance. The takeaway is simple. Intimacy is not rebuilt through pressure; it is rebuilt through consistency. Small steady actions. Showing up. Being honest. Creating safety again. When safety returns, connection follows.
HIGHLIGHTS:
Why your brain shifts into “danger mode” after betrayal
The 4 layers of intimacy most couples ignore
Why fixing sex first often backfires
The role of guilt, shame, and broken trust
How small daily actions rebuild connection
What emotional safety actually looks like
Connect with Jeremy Hinote:
Savannah River Counseling / savannahrivercounseling.com
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Hey, I'm excited to host Jeremy High with Savannah River Counseling today on our episode of the Recovery Vow podcast
and the Recovery Vow Collective. Jeremy's going to talk to us about intimacy inside of a relationship when
one or both spouses are in a recovery program together. I want you to just
listen into the words that we have. If you're just one of the podcast listeners, the first 30 minutes are going to be for you. If you are a
subscriber of our collective and you haven't yet joined our school platform and then you will have uh your
opportunity for the subscription level side of the conversation for the last 20 minutes but just for right now I want to
say thank you so much if you aren't already following us on all social media platforms please go do that you can
subscribe also to YouTube if you want to watch the full episode and uh if you go to our school platform and download the
app you can join us there you can get in the classrooms and get all the access access to the free workshops, the
quizzes, and then the day-to-day things that we will be putting out for you to have access to. Hey, if I haven't told
you lately, I am so proud of you. Enjoy this episode. It's not that that one person just
stopped caring. What happens is when we think about neurological pieces of it, the nervous system has shifted from this
connection mode to full protection mode. The brain is is starting to scan for danger where before it [music] had the
freedom to do and live. And so tiny piece of our brain that's that God has provided us. It's more the fight, flight
or freeze part of our brain. When it gets activated, you know what what happens is instead of looking for connection, we're scanning for danger
and we're asking a question. You know, am really am I safe here.
I just want to introduce Jeremy. Am I saying this last name right? Is it high note? Yeah. Just like just like you're singing
a high note. Yeah. So Jeremy, you own a a new counseling
service here in Augusta or a new location, I should say, uh Savannah River Counseling. Um today we're going
to talk about um what it's like for couples to walk through uh recovery
together. Maybe the they weren't in addiction together. It was you usually just one of the spouses, but now they're
in recovery together. At least that's the way I kind of I like to view it. But one of the conversations that we
have to have is the intimacy that disappears u when they're first kind of restarting
or walking in that journey of recovery. You know, I don't know maybe you can tell me what is there a percentage of
marriages that that typically don't make it when when someone comes out of that that addiction and into the recovery
back into marriage. Yeah. It's like it well already the research with with any couples is it you
know like we always tell couples when they come into counseling just in general usually it's a 50/50 thing. So
for us as counselors it's you know we're trying to jump in right away and do everything we can and you know and so
going through recovery you know coming away from addiction um really trying to reconnect it is it's a difficult thing.
So, we're trying to set up couples as fast as we can to to get them down the road some. And so, it is it's a
difficult journey. You know, it's it's already a 50/50 shot at that point. Um
because a lot of lot of times too couples come to they say come to couples counseling about six years too late. And
so, so you add difficulty like um addiction recovery on top of that. You know, I think the percentages start to
go down. So, it's paramount in in my view that we get them into a counseling
office and get the assistance they need just as quick as they quick as we can and get them moving down the road.
So, as our listeners hear this, um that's that's exactly why I wanted you to kind of start us off, Jeremy. So, for
you guys that are listening, if your marriage feels more like a business arrangement than an actual um partnership, this episode is for you.
So, as Jeremy and I dig into things, we're going to share uh some content back and forth, but I can tell you just
from [clears throat] personal experience, but um I think some couples
they let and maybe it's couples that that don't deal with recovery, but but some that do um sometimes the intimacy
part feels more like it's going to be a part of the schedule. And I know that some couples that have come to us and
maybe come through the collective or or been a part of recovery bow, that's been a story that I've heard is that, you
know, the intimacy, they want the intimacy back, but there's just there's there's a wall or a block um that they
have to kind of get past, if that makes sense, before they can really experience, you know, the the love side
of it. Um, so I want to talk about uh four layers of intimacy and maybe Jeremy you can
help me kind of uncover this. There's emotional, conversational, experimental,
and physical. Um, I can tell you from from experience, you
know, before I was married, you know, and I think it has something to do with just being an addiction. Like I I've had
um more than one sex partner, you know, outside of outside of my marriage before I was married, of course, but um I think
in my addiction, it was just a a part of uh the the thing, you know, I mean, I
had sex and it and it didn't really matter, you know? It was just we're just
out there doing it, I guess, is the best way to say it. But, you know, the history of partners and and the trauma, do you feel like uh
intimacy gets lost? um in that can you can you explain some of the neurological
side of things of how the betrayal or the trauma kind of plays into the factors of what makes people think the
way they do you know in their addiction and when they're thinking about intimacy and then the restoration of in intimacy
you know um after they get into recovery. Yeah. the well even going back to the
kind of the layers you mentioned you know I love it because it's it's really like those layers kind of become like a
a progression where you have this the emotional you know where you for us to
to have true intimacy it's it's almost like I tell couples all the time it's like I used to be in office where there's like this really long hallway
and I always tell them like hey like sex in the bedroom are at the end of the hallway but way over here across the
road is where everything in intimacy starts and so Because you know before to
have the let's say the mind-blowing intimate relationship we want you know we have to have the emotional safety to
do that you know which means we have vulnerability we have trust which builds then into the conversational you know
which is well now we can have open dialogue we're being curious we are engaging and then we move on to the
experiences where we're where now we feel comfortable enough to share life together we're actually doing things
together which which then moves into the physical, right? Where we have you start to have the small bits of affection,
touch and and then sex. But now sex is not just a dopamine hit, you know, it's
not just meeting a need in the moment. It it's it's it's mindblowing because of the emotional connection. So, um, you
know, when we when we think about like I do a lot of what's called Gottman therapy. You know, John Gottman did
research starting back in the late '7s with couples and, uh, that's what I do. It's a researchbased approach to couples
therapy. And um he al he also talks about addiction and recovery uh where
there's a lot of models that they don't even want to touch the marriage until all of that is finished and and wait on
the road where Godman comes along is like no we need to start building these
layers now. Um, and so, you know, it's to me it's it's interesting you, you
know, you don't get this sustainable kind of physical in intimacy without the emotional safety that's really
underneath it, you know, and so when we when we start really talking about couples and, you know, I think I think
this is where it really helps couples to kind of understand that it's not it's not that that one person just stopped
caring. What happens is really the nervous system, you know, when we think about neurological pieces of it, the
nervous system has shifted from really like this connection mode to really full
proction mode, you know, and so for let's say you have the betrayed partner, you know, now what's happening and
what's difficult and what's a roadblock is the brain is is starting to scan for danger, you know, where before it had
the freedom to to do and live. And so Godman talks about the lyic system, you
know, tiny piece of our brain that's that God has provided us. It's more the fight, flight or freeze part of our
brain. And in there when it gets activated, you know what what happens is instead of looking for connection, we're
scanning for danger and we're asking a question, you know, am really am I safe here? And so for the that's in recovery,
you know, there's often then that part is they're dealing with shame which leads to either defensiveness or
withdrawal. And so now you've got what you end up with is you take these two nervous systems and they're both trying
to protect themselves and and really what happens, but they're dealing with different things, but neither one of
them are moving forward to towards connection anymore. So it's like, you know, and and so for me, we're not we
don't look at this and say, well, one person is failing. No, it's it's two nervous systems doing exactly what they
were designed to do after there is a a threat along the way. We see
this isn't like, [clears throat] excuse me, the pollen is killing me, so sorry. Yeah. But this isn't um like one partner
feels like they're failing or do you feel do you feel like the the partner that's the person that is the supportive
spouse in this role is do they feel like they're failing at their marriage or do you feel uh it's maybe the person that
was in the addiction that's kind of kind of coming back out of that that fog of addiction and into what reality of
recovery looks like. Do they feel like they're the the person that's failing? Because you know there's there's there's a
there's a trust that's lost there for the supportive spouse, but then there's a, you know, the bridge that was burned
as the, uh, person in addiction. Um, is it one or the other that you feel
like from your standpoint, uh, one feels like they're actually just failing at this?
Yeah, I mean the interesting thing is I mean where where I think I think what will be more typical is the the person
the partner that feels like they were betrayed or I'm sorry the partner that that feels like they did the betraying
right you know they often hear more of of their story where they you know and a
part of this we want for them because it could be a driver for them you know we don't want anyone sitting in shame you
know there's a difference between shame and guilt you know guilt could make us motivated to change almost like repentance in a
sense right so um guilt you start to compute it as I'm the issue I'm the
problem you know so we want that to be short term but but often I have the person that felt that was the betrayer
will step away and feeling like you know that they have immense guilt and they really get stuck in it and it gets
really difficult so we have to get them out there out of that but also I have sometimes I I'll meet you With couples,
I'll have the person that felt betrayed um taking steps towards themselves
feeling guilt and shame. And so it gets really tricky, you know, but I think the
most often is the betrayer feels that guilt and shame. But I've also met couples where they both are dealing with
it from different angles because they'll go back and sometimes rewrite history and and oh, you know, maybe I didn't do
this and I didn't do all these things perfectly and and that's why they're trying to make sense of why that partner, you know, went down the path
they did, you know, and and there's never a good reason for that, you know, and it's hard to make sense of that. We
try to do the best we can, but then we have to do a good job trying to help them understand, you know, um, you know,
how to dig themselves out of the guilt and shame that they have because if they sit in that, it's going to be more
tempting for any kind of addiction or recovery to it's going to make it worse. And so, we have to find a way to get
them out of that. And it's this is a hard conversation to talk about it. It seems very heavy, you
know, but it's got to be a part of conversations. And I'm sure that's a part of the conversation with the couples you work with or individuals you
work with, but you know, for us guys, uh I don't speak for all guys. I'm just
saying. But from a man's point of view, probably uh most people just try to fix um that physical layer first. Like if I
can just get her to enjoy time with me in bed, that's going to start the the repair. But tell us um
in that mindset um why that thinking may still backfire.
Yeah, it often does. It's, you know, because if you think about physical intimacy, again, if we look at that kind
of analogy of, you know, down the road here's the bedroom, down to here, intimacy starts with conversation. You
know, there's all these there's all these layers that are being built underneath. And so, because physical intimacy is built on the layers
underneath, if it's like if emotional safety isn't there, then the physical
touch doesn't feel connecting, you know. So often we'll have, you know, we'll
have couples that try to jump right back into the physicalness, even even nonsexual touch, but also into sexual
touch and they feel disappointed and it backfires because that any physical
touch at this point because you don't have the trust and you feel betrayed, you know, it feels disconnecting, you
know, where before when things felt okay in relationship, it felt connecting. And
so it's like a it's a it's a complete switch where now we feel uncomfortable, we feel unsafe. And so, you know, when
couples try to in a sense kind of fix sex before they fix the safety part, it
creates more pressure, more rejection, more distance. And so, you know, you have to think about this way that
physical intimacy then is not the starting part point. Um, it's the overflow
of everything you do underneath. Um, Gottman was really really great. He he came up with a even a a process to some
of this. You know, he called it a Hasbin the same guy that did the four horsemen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's the
guy and uh you know he came up later on he was he was working with people that were going through recovery and addiction and
he came up with this kind of progression to kind of give a template to a lot of it. And he said, you know, we have
attunement, atonement, and then attachment. And that's one thing I always try to point out to couples, you
know, going through any kind of kind of recovery, right? Is if you notice the attachment, those three A's, the
attachment is always last, you know, because we have to you have to atone for what you did. And that's an ongoing
process. And then finally, you start to attune, right? And this is really part of that four layer model that you
shared. You start to make some attuning. You're doing these small things often. consistency, building trust, then you
start attaching. But what often couples try to do a lot is they jump they jump
straight to the last A, which is attachment, and then they get burned and it doesn't feel good, and then it almost
has a reverse effect. It it starts to really hurt the relationship. So we got we really got to be careful to
understand it's not the starting point but once we start doing the underneath work that's going to overflow into
creating the the intimacy we we're looking for. you know, this it just [clears throat] we sound like a couple
of teachers sitting around talking, but when it actually comes to this being
applicable to a couple, um
what's what what kind of success do you feel like uh should be a time frame like
when people start uh counseling or uh seeking advisement uh when they're when
they're going through this recovery process and they start talking about sex returning to, you know, the marriage. I
think about, you know, it's almost like our spouse has to not fall in love with us again, but just remember um who they
did fall in love with, but then that, you know, recovery creates this new person, right? We we may not be the same
um in everything we do. Uh and so it's almost like they have to learn to to
love us over again, right? Yeah. Do you do you want to um
in a humorous way, what do you think people need to just set their expectation on? Like maybe sex isn't a
part of it. Maybe, but maybe it's just where you're checking a box before the because there's a difference between intimacy and sex, right?
Yeah. There's there's got to be you can just check a box, I guess. Um
but then you got to really over time put effort into it. And I'm not talking like
look, I'm not a a sex expert, but by no means. There's a lot more I
could probably do better, [laughter] but I'm just saying like, you know, but you got to set a tone, like you said, an
atonement. So, in that atonement, is there a timeline you should you should expect? And then inside of that timeline, do you tell people like maybe
you should try these XYZ things? I don't know. I'm I'm Yeah. You talk about the physical side of it
or just the the fun side of it? Yeah, it's so the first thing I always tell so
a lot of times we'll lump any kind of addiction. So anything we say is is a
betrayal like a lot of things can be a betrayal, right? Alcohol can be involved, drugs, um you know, emotional
affair, physical affair, um just lying and we kind of lump those things together often and it really hurts. And
so the first thing I always warn and this is the this is the hard part to tell couples. I always kind of warn them. I'm like, "Listen, you know, the
first day I see him, I'm like, you got to understand that this process that you're about to start into, it is a
two-year process." I was like, "So, you need You're not saying have not have sex for two years." No, no, not not saying that part. Yeah.
So, the the the whole the whole thing encompassed is a two-year process. Now,
I generally will talk to spouses and and I and where I usually warn them is and
what's probably most common is that I mean there's times where if it's it can be up to six months, you know, before a
lot of people I notice that are going through something like that are willing to put themselves back in a vulnerable
position enough and trust the spouse enough to be have that type of closeness and physicalness with them. Now a lot of
spouses will allow you know nonsexual touch handholding you know rubbing your
your head or neck or sitting closely on a couch and stuff like that but you know a lot of times and it all depends on how
deep the trust is feels feels like it's broken and it also depends on the
individual. I'm always encouraging the couple to get individual counseling because, you know, there's a lot of psycho education for the person that's
been hurt that can actually help them to understand addiction and and the more
they can understand what is going on, that actually helps them to attune back
to their spouse and not feel like it's it's something against them, right? It's not like someone necessarily goes into
addiction to hurt their spouse. It's usually it's never that that's not what they're doing. you know, there's deeper
stuff going on that's led them down this path. And so that individual counseling actually helps speed up the process some
um if they're not doing it, it's going to be is going to be a slow process. But
but I see that often, you know, four four to six months a lot of times if the couple is doing all the right things, uh
it could take before that that person wants to have a physical, you know, sexual intimate relationship, you know,
again with that person just because the the trust is so broken, they don't feel comfortable and safe. And that's why a
lot of times in counseling, I don't cover I don't do anything with the marriage until I create help them create
stability and safety. And that takes so sometimes I put all I put everything aside and I'm like, "Hey, we can't work
on communication. We can't work on any of this stuff until we work on stabilizing y'all's relationship." And
if we can stabilize that, putting small drops in that love bank account throughout the day, those little things,
love bank, I like that. You got to make deposits in that love bank. It's it's a love bank account. And you you know, Gotman talked about it as you
put it's it's never the big things. It's always the small things. And so that's what it looks like. Like it's small
consistent things every day on a daily basis. And and it's
not flashy. It's just you're steady. That's it. And and as that goes, little
bits of trust keeps getting rebuilt. And then then it feels normal to connect
physically, sexually. At that point, I talk and this is kind of a little off
script um from what we sent to you, but in in the book um that I wrote Marriage
After Addiction, I talk about intimacy in the book, but it's more not from a clinical standpoint. Um it's more of a
practical standpoint. You know, celebrating um those milestones together, creating those moments that
you're sharing things like that together where you're going out on dates or um making my spouse laugh is one of the
my favorite things to do. It drives her crazy. But but I I I get an opportunity to be
myself um when I can make her laugh. Yeah. And sometimes it it lands, but I
mean it just, you know, you got to be able to create those moments where, you know, from a practical standpoint, you
know, you and I are talking clinically, but from a practical standpoint, you know, there's a list of things that guys can do
that becomes the love language that that their wife needs to hear, and there's a list of things that if if it's the woman that's in the recovery that that they
can do, you know, for their husband. Yeah. To kind of just rebuild that, let them kind
of come along and be a part of the recovery journey. and uh and just make it fun like you
know like I said this is heavy conversation but it's just it's just conversation we got to have um
as we kind of move on and we talk about um emotional safety and and and what it actually requires
you talked about this um being down the hall um but also you know being across
the hall um what does that sink look like or what does that hallway look like
on a regular Tuesday Yeah. I mean, I think when we start to
to look at like safety when when life is playing out, right? I
mean, it's it's real life. We're in the house together, you know, it's a it's a normal normal night of the week. I mean,
I think when we look at it even clinically, it's like we're we're really talking about predictability, you know,
and non-defensiveness, um, consistent responsiveness over time. I mean, those
are the kind of the building blocks. Um, but I think it's it really, if you look at it like practically, it's like, you
know, it's really this. It's like when I show up, you know, consistently and honestly, um, I'm not going to get shut
down or attacked or ignored. Um, and so I think when we think about like a normal night, then it looks like just
small things done consistently. And so, you know, you you ask a real question
and you you you sit and you listen and you stay in proximity to that person and
you don't escalate when when something gets tense. You follow through, you know, with what you say that you're
going to do. And and and that's the thing though, it's it none of that is flashy. Like, it's all it's just nothing
but steady. And and that's the couples that win in the end, you know, like because the problem is I see most
couples what that go through this is the person that was the betrayer. And so
they, you know, they they atone for things, right? And they're and they're they're ready to go. Like they they like
we think about from like a Christian perspective like someone going forward at church, right? And you know, they're they're putting that stuff in light.
Everyone knows now. Well, that's that's what they need. I mean, that's what that's the saving grace for them, right?
In the counseling office, it's the same way. It's like when they can finally release what they've been holding out in
the darkness, you know, it's this freedom. And so, you know, so then, you
know, once that's out there, what happens a lot is the betrayer, you know, if we look at it from that perspective,
they they tend to jump up pretty quick and they're raring the goat. I mean, they're they're moving, they're doing
well, they're doing all the things. Well, the spouse is still way down here. And so it's really difficult because
it's this person's going to get impatient. They're ready to move forward. This person is like still reeling from what took place. And a part
of the therapy and part of the process is is helping this person not to go too fast, to be patient, to attune to that
person, to be transparent and just do the small things because eventually what happens is as they do that and stay
patient, which that's why we say it's generally a two-year process with with everything, not just the like sexual
intimacy. They got it. This person has to catch up slowly with them. And then once they do, man, it feels great. But
man, it just takes like small consistent show up, do what you say, be
transparent, and man, that's going to create the safety that the relationship needs and stability and it's going to
move it down the road for sure. Yeah. Um, talking about safety and and in the absence of conflict, I need I
need everybody to hear this. We again, we're not saying that it's going to take a year or two years for for you you guys
in your relationship to have sex. You may have sex the first week that somebody comes home from treatment or or whatever. That's right. Exactly. Right. Um, I
think what we're [clears throat] what we're what we're saying here is that and there's a lot that we're saying, but for
for for the person in addiction, we went through some kind of a trauma more than likely
that created or opened up the doors for us to walk into um what the addiction was able to to remove from from her
brain maybe or our DNA that that caused that trauma. But then in our addiction and if we got married and we were in
addiction, we then created trauma for our spouse. And so both of us have now gone through some kind of a trauma and both of us are
trying to heal from trauma. Uh and one of the words that you've you've said multiple times now is just that that
safety. Not only we as the person in addiction need that
safety and our spouse needs that safety. We have to provide that safety to each other. Yeah. Um
when you um you could be I want to ask you a question. Um you can be sober and still
feel emotionally unsafe and your spouse um your spouse's body knows the
difference between the difference before their mind does. Mhm. That's that's a big question. Let me
break it down like this. In sobriety, I still am trying to find confidence again, right? Um and and and a spouse is
going to know that. um my spouse and I um
we we split up my first wife and I we split up after 9 months and I don't know
if it was because of the safety or the bridge bridges that I burned or because
I defined myself as this new person and that's why I brought it up earlier is that this new Eric wasn't the same old
Eric that I used to be and so she wasn't as attracted to that. Now, she didn't
want me to be an addiction, but I had a different mindset. I was wanting to do different things. I wanted to experience
different things. I wanted to go to meetings or do a 12step process, you know, all these different things that
that wasn't really attractive for her or fit into what she wanted, which is fine.
Um, now our marriage didn't make it, but it led to the marriage I have now, which is very strong and very healthy.
Um, and and we give each other that balance. Um, but my wife now wasn't with
me when I was in addiction. She just gets to hear all these horror stories. Um, but for the couples that that do
make it and they they fight for it, I guess what I'm saying in that is that we all we all thrive off of confidence.
But um, your spouse is going to know um the difference um before their mind
does, right? So they may have a desire to want to to move into that that just that sex
sex time. um and just check the box because just become a part of the
program again of life. You know, everybody's just so busy and everything. But yeah, how do you how would you encourage them
before we we transition to um our part of the collective call just as we kind of land the plate on this first part of
it? When you think about confidence, safety,
and things being expedited, how how would you encourage a couple to find that balance? Now, I'm assuming it's
different for every couple, but you know, when you when you think about the confidence side of things and the safety
side of it, is there one thing that you would want couples to know that what we're saying is not applicable to every
couple? How do they find their confidence in their safety? Yeah, I think you know the one thing I'm always
trying to do with any like you know really any couple I see is especially if
I I can tell it's really it's really bad is just instilling a hope because there
is there's always hope. I mean that's saying you know just because a couple is going through something difficult like
this it is it's not a verdict on their marriage. I mean, if couples are willing to to step to the plate and both work
hard individually and collectively, I don't I don't I don't believe there's there's a couple that can't come out the
other side and be extremely strong. Uh because I've seen couples do that. I've
seen couples really bad off. I mean, all the wrong things going on and everything
that could contribute in a negative way were there and they they put their mind to it. They slowly rebuilt intimacy,
you know, from the emotional layer first to the physical layer. And they re they they were able to re rebuild that safety
through small moments of life, you know, and and and any couple can do that if
they allow if they're open to it and they're allowing themselves to to go down that path and they're doing the
hard work. And that's the hope is every couple can make it. If they can do the
hard work and they put it in, they we will rebuild that safety. It will
stabilize the relationship and and sooner than they think um they will have
intimacy back in that relationship again. So that's good. That's that's a good word to hear at the end and it it is
100% possible for all this to work out. That's right. Absolutely. Look, before
we move on to the second uh session of our call today, I would like to take
this time to just say if you haven't already, you can join the recovery valve collective by going to our website.
We're going to move into this section. We're going to go in a little bit deeper into this conversation, have a little bit more uh conversation back and forth
between Jeremy and I. But if you haven't done so yet, please follow us on our YouTube account, our Tik Tok account,
our Instagram account, or our Facebook account. You can learn more about Recovery Vow as a nonprofit. You can
also purchase the book Marriage After Addiction. You can hear more about the upcoming book that is written for parents in recovery and our devotional
that's coming soon. But as for now, I appreciate you watching this podcast and
stay tuned for more information on the upcoming podcast.