Restored by Grace: The Harrisons on Marriage, Faith & Redemption | Recovery Vow Podcast

In this heartfelt episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with Sarah and Jermaine Harrison, a couple whose story of addiction, faith, and restoration will inspire anyone who’s ever struggled to hold it all together.

Jermaine opens up about his battle with alcoholism, the childhood wounds that fueled it, and the pride that almost cost him everything. Sarah shares her powerful “laundry room moment”—a night of surrender when she begged God for clarity and got an unexpected answer that changed everything.

Together, they reveal how an XO Marriage Intensive and the process of rebuilding trust helped them rediscover love, heal from past trauma, and become certified marriage coaches helping others do the same.

This powerful conversation is a testament to how God can turn pain into purpose and how true recovery restores more than sobriety—it rebuilds marriages, families, and faith from the inside out.

On This Episode:
The Harrisons’ journey from addiction to marriage restoration
How childhood trauma impacts trust and thought patterns
The spiritual battle of negative thinking and isolation
Sarah’s “laundry room moment” that changed everything
How marriage intensives bring breakthrough and healing


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• Transcript

  Hey, thanks for joining us on the Recovery Bout podcast. Today I've got Sarah and Germaine and these guys are amazing. They are local celebrities to EXO and we're going to talk a little bit about that. We're going to talk about um their involvement in EXO, their story from EXO um and their newest training in the marriage intensives that is offered here at EXO. So, I want to dive right in with you guys and first of all just say thank you for making the track over here. How How long did it take you to get here? Oh, it was 3 hours. It was 3 hours. You could have been doing something else. You came to hang out with me. Absolutely. We're excited. But I appreciate that. So, as we dive in, why don't you just guide us through your story a little bit? Let's go back to when you met if you want to, but you know, you know, you told me you're in sobriety. We can we can start there. Um or we can go back to what drove you to reaching out. Let's do that. What took you to the point where you knew that you needed EXO? Why did you need EXO? How did you hear about EXO? And what led you to mediation? Man, now marriage intensives. Marriage intensive. What led us there? Um I would I would go with We were invited to um um go to one of the conferences. Yeah. And um by our very close friends and I can't remember how but they told us about it, gave us like a book and just kind of said how it changed their marriage and um and to this day they've been, you know, we've gone on, you know, all of the conferences together and stuff like that, but they're the ones who told us about it. So our our trek to the first one was kind of where it started. But it wasn't an easy track. It was not. How long ago was that first? That was five five years ago. Yes. 5 years ago was the first one. Yeah. Where were you guys at in your marriage at that time? I would say we were [sighs and gasps] we're 19 years strong now. So in our marriage at that point, we were um both chasing Jesus the best we could. We were fighting and our fights were more around my thought process. Um it was a thinking era that I was dealing with and I mean it was a it was a serious thinking era. Um who were you thinking about right you remember? So oh yeah Eric man I was [clears throat] that point in my life I was thinking um my thoughts were very negative. They were um couldn't trust people. I felt um I felt that my wife wasn't trustworthy anymore. uh people the devil was using situations in life of where people took advantage of me and things of that nature and it was playing in a way that man it was kicking my butt you know I mean kicking my kicking my butt hard from a stance that I was just like you know I can't trust people and that fell into the aspects of the devil was utilizing that towards me towards my wife as well at that season of my life. So, it was it was a pretty it was a rough place to be in. What got you in that um in that mindset? Were things were you dealing with something from the past? I was. I was. So, you [clears throat] know, cuz I don't think you're far off from a lot of folks, but a lot of folks that are going to listen to this, they need to hear, well, this is why he was thinking like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we um the thinking we you you hear people say things like um think about what you're thinking about, you know, and and and that's something I stand on now like you have to think about what you're thinking about. Are they good? Are they nobody worthy of God? And at that season, my thought process was not there. It was it was um very negative. It was I wasn't in my word. I wasn't reading the Bible like I usually would. Um, I was investing. He was he was sober. He was I was sober. Yeah. I wouldn't I mean I was he was sober. I think the enemy kind of came hard for for him to because he saw that he was losing his hold, you know, on him. Like we were um you know hosting uh we like to say hosting, not like leading, but we were hosting small groups in our home. and um you know I think the enemy was seeing like oh that their story is going to make a difference you know and and what can I do to stop it? So he kind of attacked him on thinking like he like not just not trust specific people but maybe a genre and then that maybe kind of and that genre really was um it was it became like dealing with people of the church uh to an extent. I'll just be honest with you there. I felt like um dealing with all these people that are hypocrites um and just gapping them in a category and you know leading you feel like you saw something that was fake and Oh yeah, man. And I do I mean I think everybody you know you see things and your approach or you're spoking about and while there may be a a little truth a lot of truth in there the devil would throw a little lie and that little lie um think about what you're thinking about before you know your thought process has shifted from the truth and the enemy has got you locked in on that lie. Yeah. So now everything you thought was noble, holy, and right, your mindset has shifted because the devil has just put a little oil in that water and muddied it up for you. So you're talking about just the way you would view an individual or them as a couple or the church. You're talking about everybody. For me, it was it was um viewing things from my from my viewpoint. Um couple, church. Um, so let's just start with XO, right? Um, prior to XO, we had friends that were married and I was like, my mind said, well, trust me, they got issues in their marriage. It was always looking at the negative piece. Uh, with church, it was not seeing what God was wanting me to see, but seeing what the enemy wanted me to see, the negative things that was happening at church, not the good that was being done. Yeah. So, it was it was um it was rough. Yeah, it was it was a rough set of limbs to be to be walking in. That's for sure. On the way on the way there, we pulled the car over like three times. Yeah. Cuz we were kind of like, why are we wasting the gas money to even go, you know, and then we were both cuz we both love the Lor. We both love our kids. We love each other's family, you know. We were family been married for a very long time, you know. We didn't want to give up. We're both very passionate. [clears throat] And um we like to say even at that point we said like we love we love hard we fight hard but we we try to say we love harder [clears throat] you know like to overcome those things and especially coming out of um you know into sobriety like I felt for me I was like we can't stop now like we can't give up now like we got to you know like I didn't want to throw in the towel you know especially for our kids and [clears throat] um our community and things like that but you know like you said the the enemy, you know, I'm an artist, so I think of like visualizations, but it's like a little tiny drop of black paint in a bucket of white turns it gray. And so then you're wondering what's white, what's black, like what is what is really truth? And so the enemy really, he's the, you know, author of lies. So we had to just kind of identify those things and attack them. But, um, it started, it it started here. And then it was really cool how um they like did an announcement at the conference and we're like if people are here and their man their marriage is in like a hard place um we're going to do a breakout session and I was like that's us that's us you know and so we're like let's do it. Okay. And then when we were in there um it was it was really cool. Germaine definitely heard from the Holy Spirit and yeah, there [snorts] were several people in there that were representing EXO so they could like they talked about, you know, marriage intensive and everything and and then it was like, "Okay, we're going to be up here for prayer and for whatever else." And so Germaine was like, "I want to I want to talk to that one." And he's like following her mama and it was Teresa. That's how that's how Yeah. Teresa [clears throat] got like Johnny on the spot point. And Eric, the crazy part about this is like when you talk about the um you know, how did we get here? I'll tell you it was the soriety piece was just a piece of it. Yeah. It was like you woke up one day, God removed this from you and you knew what you needed to do to proceed forward. But going back through and looking at the forgiveness um of self, the self frustrations, the self um doubt, the self um anger that I was dealing with internally, you [clears throat] know, and it wasn't, man, it was hard to even tell sometimes to people. We you heard from my wife, we were leading a life group, right? we were still respected in the community. I was still coaching youth and coach Jay blah blah blah, you know. Um, I was still Yeah. and still do do those things, but doors closed tools, you know. Yeah. It was still hurt that I was dealing with that I couldn't come to grips with. And um, this was hurt that you dealt with prior to the marriage. Yeah. This was this was hurt. One of the reasons why I was drinking. Yes, sir. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, child. I would call [snorts] it um if you can if if the devil can take the boy, he don't have to fight the man, right? So from childhood to coming into adult, I had these hurts. Got married with these hurts. Uh felt never told her about anything. Never told her about it. Felt doing the American dream, right? And biblically doing the biblical dream as well. um of trying to serve God, trying to raise your kids in church, trying to take care of your family, uh trying to be a good American citizen, you know, trying to um honor God the best way you can ask for forgiveness where you error at and not stay down, but get back up. But when the door is closed, the enemy is like shooting darts at you. Boom. Boom. So, you're like, "Ah, you're no good. Mhm. You did this before. You did that. Your marriage is this way. Your marriage is that. So, you don't even have time to really think about that one thing the enemy threw because when you start thinking about it, the enemy shot four or five more things. So, now you're just like, "Yeah, I can't get away from what the enemy is trying to do." So, you the past would be go grab a bottle. Mhm. Enjoy a cocktail. That slow my mind down. Yeah. Just sober now. Mhm. You got to fight with the word of God. That's right. Now, you mentioned a minute ago when you were talking Sarah about you guys had to throw in the towel. Um were you in any kind of active addiction with him? Um no, but um I've definitely like have fought depression, you know, um for a long time just from some trauma that I went through um when I was in high school. And I feel like um that planted that seed, you know, like where the enemy would try to get my thought process um there. And you know, those were things that literally brought us to EXO and and and you know, ultimately we were able to kind of attack those things in the intensive. And in retrospect, it's all crazy to think about because I'm like just as we're talking, I'm like, dang. Because God was still moving. He was still doing a good work, but the enemy had us [snorts] so, you know, when it came to our marriage, he had us um wrapped up in thinking all the negative things. And so, not seeing cuz he didn't want your marriage to work out, right? Whatever the thing is that you're bringing to the table. Yes. Whatever the thing is that you're bringing to the table, he's showing you that you guys are a disaster together. Yes. All these lies like the arrows like the fiery darts, you know, like that were being thrown at us and um [clears throat] and just being like, "Okay, what is why, you know, why?" And then we kind of got to a point too where we were like, "Hey, like if we were leading that group or whatever, opening our home on Wednesday night, it would be Wednesday morning." And we're like, "Hey, wait, wait, wait. This is the devil. This is the devil coming in to attack." Yeah. Like we're on to his plan. Like, of course, XYZ will happen or whatever kind of attack that would happen. And so, we just try to rise above those things. And then, can you give me an example like what what were you praying for before that evening? Like that you even wanted to to do the event and have everybody over? What were you what were you [clears throat] asking? Sometimes it be small stuff, but sometimes it be we're we're business owners, so some of it was business. Um just certain things, which is how which was our bread and butter. So that um you know, I was working part-time and then part-time for the business. And so sometimes it was um [clears throat] just Yeah. I don't know. Small. So it can be keep it Yeah. It can be, Eric, it can be one of those that um we're going to have group tonight and in that day um a frustration of the business took place. That kind of threw me off for a little bit. Or we got a phone call and having to deal with a member of our small group situation. That can be a marital situation. That could be a um personal situation with an individual in the group. And now we have to invest a high level of energy and time into that and then prepare ourselves to host a group and be fully devoted uh to serving these members of the group the way our Jesus is wanting us to do it. So cuz small groups are small church really and you become the pastor. It's like Acts man. It's like you're carrying the burden of that. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we love we love our church. Um we definitely um we've been there for a long time and we And what was the church again? It's Craig Rochelle's church. Life Church. Life Church. Life Church. You've been there for a long time and um yeah, that's part of it. Like I like for a long time we were like, "No, no, no. We're just we're just volunteers, you know." But then there came a point where God was like, "You're going to let's quit denying this, you But um it that's kind of our style of leadership as well is just being transparent because everywhere we had gone before had been um like a facade, you know, and I don't think people mean to be like that, but they don't realize pe what people need is to invite others to their messy like because then they don't feel alone and then they're like, "Oh, they they they they struggle too." And then it's like, "Well, heck yeah, we do. It's real life. Let's pray, man." Like that's what scripture tells us like we should two of us should touch and in agreement and pray and rebuke whatever it is and and go to war for each other so we can be healed you know or you know um you know uh you know bring our sins out and and repent you know confess and repent like whatever it was. It was just sometimes it seemed like it was just distractions cuz sometimes it is just distractions like life gets busy and what what do we put our energy to? What do we put our time to? What you know you know ultimately like in the end Germaine and I both knew like we would be okay on our own you know if we had to. We didn't want that. But I think we knew like we got to stay together for our family because you know there's such an attack on families and then like zooming out looking at it all. I'm like no wonder he comes with addiction like people like he comes the enemy comes for people with addiction because he can get them hooked on something and then he's got them for a while you know it's just like he's got his hook in him and so cuz then he makes that be the only thing that you think about so you don't have to think about anything else. Right. How many people did you have in your small group? Total, I want to say we have 15 in our small group. That's a lot of people. It's very intimate. That's still a lot of people to host. It is home. It is middle of the week. Oh, yeah. We do it uh Sunday and then I have a men's group on Thursday and my wife has a women's group on Tuesday. So, it's um man, it's it's a busy one. Busy. It's a busy. Talk to me a little bit about um after you prayed with Teresa. Um Yeah. What what led you next to sharing your story with EXO and then what led you to decide okay we need to go through mediation? Oh let me I will let me hit this. Okay I was [clears throat] so um [laughter] what led us to tell our story? Yeah. 2x I would say the first thing was breaking pride and the pride breaking had to start with me. Um that was that was the first thing I felt God was like you got to break pride. Um and that I feel that was the first thing and [clears throat] then knowing that Mama T have the what God showed me about her. Um, I knew that I was in the right place at the right time and she was able to relate to some of the things I was feeling. Yeah. which but what that's what was so cool like we didn't even some of it we didn't even know until we were actually in our intensive which was like [clears throat] I don't remember how long it was after we met her but I mean it literally like blew my mind cuz I was like and you know I won't like go into details but it was just something that the Lord knew like this is how it's going to make sense and at least but I needed that cuz I was like oh my gosh cuz I was like just like why is he you know picking this one person out. But I'm like, "Hey, whatever. We're getting help. Let's do this." You know, and um then when we were in our intensive, you know, she was explaining, you know, it's like 8 hours. Very intense. It is 8 hours in a row possibly. Yes. And well, we, you know, have a lunch break and all the things and there's some, you know, prerequisites, but um all in all, 100% 100% [clears throat] worth every every penny, every Yeah. everything we did up to that moment. It was just like it all connected these dots and it's a wonderful program which she wrote you know we didn't we didn't even know that either like when when we prayed with her obviously. So um but when she was you know revealing some of the stuff and she's like Germaine I dealt with that too or I was like oh my gosh like so good. Yeah. The ground was level. The ground was exactly it was um the devil had me in my thoughts so hard that I didn't think the ground was level. I was like, who can I bring this to? You know, um, looking from the outside, it's like, man, Eric the coach, Eric the business owner, Eric that when he walks in the room, people are always, "Hey, Eric, how you doing?" bl no one saw Eric, the human, the human in that in that moment, right? So I had these these pressures man that um I put on myself and they just built up. They built up and they built up. So I was carrying my own weights, my family weights and respectfully um by choice um of not knowing the weights of others I was carrying instead of saying these weights don't belong to me. easily belong to Jesus. And my job is to be the best I can be for Jesus. And so, Mama Teresa, she helped she helped level that ground with me. She helped uh alleviate those bricks. She helped me think about what I was thinking about and fix my mind on Jesus and what was true, what was noble. Um, and identify. Don't run from things that were not true. where where are they coming from, Germaine? And she was able to walk me through things in a marriage intensive that identified um man, I'm trying not to get emotional as I talk about it. Get emotional. We got tissue right there. No, man. I'm too big to be crying now. You know what I'm saying? Whatever you want to say. [laughter] But um she she really she helped me identify [snorts] uh things about myself that I was struggling with. Mhm. And those things about self fell into my marriage that Sarah really didn't know. She can see them, but she didn't know where they were coming from. And when we identify where they were coming from, we were able to work ourselves down and say, "Okay, it came from here." Right? But because it came from here, here's how it affected you. Here's how it's affecting you. and if you don't fix this change, here's how the future can look with this. So, it was able to fix issues that I was dealing with that I brought into my marriage through these intensives to help me reprogram and I go back to the term thinking about what I was thinking about, right? So, and [clears throat] I guess tools, you know, like tools. Amen. Yeah. And it was like you know you have things like in life that we everyone talks about and it's definitely gotten uh you know more popular for to have like good mental health good you know all these things. So, um, but unfortunately, I feel like there weren't a lot of tools that helped with marriage. And at that time, um, we needed just the tools in our tool belt to be able to like identify. Cuz when we identified some of those things, I was like, oh, well, if I would have known that, you know, it's kind of like, oh, okay. So, I could have walked through this. Yeah. Like just aha moments. And I I think for people that are are listening to the podcast today or if you're watching it, um it it almost sounds like you guys are talking in code when when because of because of what you're trying to talk about as it was uncovered in you during your marriage intensive. So let's say let's use that to say, you know, when when you come in for an intensive, it's um usually the husband or the wife are bringing something to the table. and mediation. Um, some people think that's where you mediate because you're getting help in your separation, but this is how you're bringing your marriage back together. And then there's these little things that you hold when it's your turn to talk and you get to share and only you get to share and then we have to listen and different uh practices that you do. That's why it takes, you know, this this eight hours. Yeah. Um, one of my favorite things, uh, my wife and I had to go through like this, um, like a practice before we went through mediation training. One of my favorite things I got to do with her, I don't think I've done it since. I need to do it. Is we got to write love letters to each other? Yeah. Remember that? Oh, yeah. And and you you wrote a love letter about um, you know, the day that you knew you fell in love with her, the the the happiest moment from the day of your wedding. And then um one of the most happiest moments, you know, since she'd been together and like what what her family dynamic brought to the to the marriage and what your f family dynamic brought to the marriage. Nothing negative can be said. Has to be like all positives. And man, that tore that tore me apart. I was I was crying when she was reading it because it gave you a glimpse of what really goes on in her head. And everything else that I was messing up was nothing that fit in that letter anyway. So it wasn't what defined me, but it was just me showing her I can be this way. You know what I mean? So I say all that to just level the level the ground at the cross, right? Without without getting too spiritually scriptural here, whatever, but you know, that's why God's done that for us is that whatever those things are that you are carrying are the same as the things that I'm carrying. They may sound different or word different or spelled different, but they're just things. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Yes. I'm I'm glad you guys went through through the mediation. Um, I'm glad you guys are certified um to help people now. Absolutely. Thank you. So, in in that, let's talk about that. Do you work with couples now and still have a business and still have small groups and still go to church or how did you find a balance of all the things that were causing you to So, we are we are learning the balance, the balance of uh being business owners, being marriage coaches. Um and literally I think the biggest thing for us is managing our time with it. Um you know we have to ensure that the kids have their time. We have our time. Um how many kids is it? We have two boys. How old are they? I have a seven We have a 17-year-old and a 19y old. Okay. So we're now at a place that man give us two years we're empty nasty. Yeah, it's a whole new season. Whole new season, you know, like we're One's at state. Um, the other's in high school and we're we're I can feel it, Eric. We can feel it. We can feel the, you know, we can feel the the new season coming that we don't have to, but um you're ready for it. We're ready. Amen. Yeah. But it's been I think balancing all of those things has been I would say it's a it's not g I'm not going to say it's a challenge but it has been challenging because one thing in this right now it's football season and the only reason we're not crazy busy at this time is our son just had ACL surgery so it happened out on the football field right so but usually you know of course we're busy with his recovery right now But um usually we're really really busy. So it was like two nights a week and then or others were taken up, you know, and not in a bad way. It's we choose those things like we choose. Oh, absolutely. We choose them. Yeah. To to have those groups and because it fills us as well. And I think um part of that is life. Like it's so easy to be isolated and and honestly like it feels like that's sometimes the retreat of isolation is what um where all the negative happens. So like living together in community and um like sharing things and and knowing that they're kept in like a safe space um was so helpful for both of us and it was helpful for us um you know in immediately following recovery as well. Um you mentioned the thing about the letter and I felt like that was like a beautiful moment for us um when we read each other's letter. Yes. It it really realigned us and it reminded us like why we fell in love in the first place and and and just kind of almost like your defenses went down and so um I don't know about all that. I was still defensive here. I probably should write a love letter every [laughter] day. Note to self, right? Like it help it did it helped a lot. And then like it helped us just to kind of be like, "Oh, that's right." Like we are on the same team, you know? how do we fight this together? Whatever maybe like um just whatever the devil's trying to throw at us or whatever we were facing that day or or during that, you know, season in life. And so um when I think about the he said he asked like when it when it comes to Mhm. how do we manage it all? I think Sarah and I just we really are learning to manage it all because it's a different season God got us in. God is like literally, you know, being a time manager is is it's not it's it's harder than most of us think. You know, um there are people who are really good at it. And I just I can't say men are the best at it because we want to give so much to everyone, but God has been teaching us of when to pour in. Yeah. When to step back and when to just pray and let people grow. So right now we're we're managing this well. So we're managing working with couples right now. I feel we're doing good at that. I feel that we are there are times we feel I'm sure like other people thought about saying they're just not getting it. Mhm. Right. Yeah. They need to bump their head a little more and then come back to the drawing board with us and they can get it, you know. Um and we're both like bleeding hearts, too. that was like a big thing where we'd have to step back and be like, "Oh, are we more than they want it?" Like because sometimes like when your heart's heavy, you've been through something, you don't want anyone else to like that. You know how it looks. And you know it happens and you can fix it and it wind up you'll have an error one or two ways, you know. So God has allowed us to get better at managing those type of relationships when we're coaching and helping building marriages. Um that that piece is becoming more manageable. Uh our life groups we've by the grace of God we've managed we're managing those from our life group to our men's group and our women's group. Those are just they flow very well because we've been doing it for years now. uh this the marriage piece is just the newest piece we've added into it and I don't want to say the newest piece the newest piece where we were became coaches because we've been doing it for years now but to take it to the next level where we felt God is calling us to do it that's been um I ain't going to say a challenge it's been a change in a very good way for us so tell me a little bit about um you said you dealt with some addiction what was the addiction And how long did it last before you found recovery? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I was a heavy drinker and it lasted probably I would go back to say probably 17 years old is when I started, but I think it started getting heavy right behind college. um in my early 20s. I think it got heavy and it lasted until I turned uh where it lasted effectively 11 years. So, uh my my early 30s is when I was able to kick it. Yeah. Same. I I stopped or had to go to treatment at 30 30 years old. Okay. Yeah. Very good. Six now. So, I just hit 15 years. Oh, man. Congratulations. No. Yeah. No, thank you so much. It is. It's It's nothing I've done. Yeah. It's all God. It's all God. I mean, it really is. Amen. Yeah. Now, in the beginning, I was like, man, I'm doing this. This is all me. Yeah. Yeah. After a while, you realize like, man, this is 30 days, one year, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. It's you look back and there's no measurable that can be done or no equation without your higher power as you understand him being in the beginning. Absolutely. Yeah. I've remembered what it felt like to um man to wake up and not have a craving or a desire. And um I remember waking up having a feeling, having a craving, making very good financials. Like I said, like the American dream for most people, but no one was seeing me closet drink. Not literally drinking in the closet, but you know, hiding as best you thought you could. Absolutely. Sitting at home in my own office drinking a 18 pack, you know, and working at the same time. You know, some people think that sounds cool, but when you're addicted like we are, oh man, it's horrible. It's not. It's it's it's a it's miserable. It's it's um it's sad. And for anybody that deals with anybody that's doing that today, man, I encourage them to like literally just reach out to one person um that I just have a conversation with them. How long you been walking in sobriety now? 11 years. So you've been sober for 11 years. 11 years. Yes, sir. Congratulations to you. Thank you. Thank you. I've got a question for you. I want to make sure that I give you guys a copy of this book, uh Marriage After Addiction. Absolutely. Yeah. The reason is, well, you already have too much to do. I wouldn't ask you to do this, but when it comes time to lead a group at your church, this is written as a workbook. Four small groups, four treatment centers. So, at the end of every chapter, there's questions that you would answer as a person in recovery. And there's a spot you would answer questions as a person, as a supportive spouse. It's really written to you, uh, the supportive spouse, cuz they get they often get forgotten about, you know, like y'all just live through this train wreck and then when I get ready to put it back together, y'all just come on down. you know, so you get forgotten about. Um, so make sure that you guys have two copies of this before you leave. Absolutely. Um, and if there's couples that you are helping that we can we can help them, you know, through the groups that you're a part of. Yeah. If they're dealing with any kind of addiction, um, I want to talk to them or when the time's right after you guys go through this book and decide you want to help them, I want to teach you how to do that. That's wonderful. You love that. That's wonderful. I didn't I kind of like when he was talking like there was there was um a moment like um before sobriety the a family member was like you know that hard love moment like when they're really mean well but in the moment you're like oh my gosh you're so mean but was basically trying to to give Germaine hard love and then you know and I'm like all in agreement like yeah yeah tell him and then he looks at me and is like and you should have known Sarah you're you know and I was you know, like how dare you? But but then like later processing it later, I was like, "Oh my gosh, like did I enable this or did I do something that um you know, or [clears throat] should I have said something more?" Cuz to me, like alcoholism looked like, you know, slash drunk, you know, or you know, just like vomiting. Like I was very naive to um functional alcoholism like being cuz he held a job. He was great with our kids, you know, we we were always doing stuff together like those things. And um I I just didn't even know what was out there to help. And so there's not much out there. That's that's why when I brought this to EXO, I'm like, I'd really love to put this out there. And I can tell you that there's nothing out there for the support of spouse because now you're in recovery together. There's nothing out there. Yeah. I mean, because you guys are both in recovery now, whether you know, and so when I pitched this idea, it's like, look, we you don't you don't have to do this, EXO, but I'm I'm going to do this. I'd like to do it with you. Um, it's not about book sales. I could care less about book sales. I could Let me say this in the camera. I could care less about book sales. I buy it and give them away. Yeah. You know, I have this is a nonprofit that I have here. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so what this does is it creates a legacy for when when you and I aren't here one day, right? And you aren't here either. You you've given this tool or this resource and it's been passed on. Yeah. You know, so that's the that's the beauty in in Recovery Vow and and the the growth that I want to see with the collective and our our coffee line and things like that. Um, but the biggest thing is just being able to help that that one couple. I know people say it all the time, just to help that one person, help that one couple. Well, I'm going to help a bunch of them, but if I can just help one maybe this week, or maybe one this month, that's that's the goal. That's the goal. Absolutely. Um, so I would be very honored to to give you guys a copy of this, read through it, give me some feedback. If you get the guy nudge to lead a a recovery group for married married folks, fine. Um, I'll give you everything you need to do that. Love it. Um, is there anything before we close that you would say we went through we went through marriage mediation as a couple. We've also now been trained as mediators or marriage intens intensives um to to give that or walk with couples through that. What would be the one strong piece of advice you would give yourself right now if you didn't have that? Um, what I actually For me, just as a spouse, um I think it was always this question of what is safe and what is like when when I needed to remove myself or the the kids. Um and so that was a lot of pressure for me like what if I traumatized my kids by you know when he wasn't ready to be sober and that was really hard for me and um one question changed everything for me and it was um basically you it was kind of an like an inner vow that I made with God that it was like I'm gonna stay until you tell me to go and I'm gonna trust you because you've spoken to me before and and I needed him to tell me clearly um you know when it was time to go and I thank God because there were there were definitely times that um I I call it like my laundry room moment but literally um laundry room it was just like this moment in all of it that I will never forget. And I I had gotten to the point where I had already done this, you know, like with God and I'm like, "Okay, he's going to tell me and I already know like we'll just we're going to do all everything we can just all the things." things. And I just remember being like, "Okay, I'm going to get the kids to bed." And then I'm going to have a talk with the Lord. And I was like, and I'm like, you know, I'm [clears throat] going to go negotiate, you know, like I was like, I'm going to go to the laundry room. I'm shutting the doors. And I had made this like I was just, you know, at my end. And, um, I wanted I obviously I wanted it more than he did, but I also didn't understand it. And so, um, you know, in retrospect, I I understand so much more, but at that moment, I didn't. I was just hurting. And, um, I didn't know what to do. And so I was like, well, even though I already said that to God, I'm going to make I'm going to, you know, let me give an amendment to this. Like um and I was like, I'm going to go pray in this laundry room and shut the doors. And I told the Lord, I was like, I'm not getting up until you release me from this marriage. And um I just cried and I prayed and I cried and I just almost treated the ceiling, you know, of the laundry room like um it was, you know, the throne of Jesus, the feet of Jesus, and just prayed and prayed and um not not aloud um but cry. I definitely was crying um a lot. And um literally that night um on the ground of the tile, you know, in the laundry room, he he came and knocked on the door. [snorts] And you know, as I look at the door, I'm like, uh, you know, I was annoyed. And so I didn't say anything. He was like, he does it again. And um, you know, uh, I was like, what? You know, and it still, um, it's still really cool to see how God answered that prayer because he literally said like the exact words that I prayed. Um, and he said, "I hope that you're not asking God to release you from this marriage." I was drunk, too. He was drunk. He was literally drunk. And I I mean, I just looked at the door like it just, you know, and it was like, "You're real funny, God." Like I was like, "Are you serious?" Like, that was the only time I said that. Yeah. I've never How many? [clears throat] No. No. It was just a turning point. It was It was a turning point for us. Yeah. Where I knew like God was like, "Yeah, I'm not done with you. I'm not done with you." Like as a couple. Yeah, like your kids need you, your your people need you. This is just one part cuz I think sometimes and especially like with social media and just things like I think we think that our enilments are our story and that's sometimes we stumble upon that. But you know I knew Germaine was so much more than that. like I wanted my husband back, you know, that's what I would that's how I would pray, you know, like I was waring for him to come back, you know. Um, and in that moment is when I felt like, oh my gosh, like what? And it, you know, he had no idea and I I didn't tell him for a long time actually about that moment. Yeah. [snorts] Um, just cuz it was hard for me, too. It was like, oh my gosh. I mean, and we joke around a lot, like laughter was our medicine. Um, and so we got through it with laughter. And so one time we were just cracking up and I was like, "Did you know what I call this moment?" The laundry room moment. And then he was like, "Oh my god, you never told me that." I'm like, "I know." Cuz it just seemed harsh. It almost seemed harsh to like bring it up like when he began, you know, sobriety. Like I didn't want to live in that past either. I was ready to move on, you know. Um, and I didn't want it to define him and define us. Um but he was like when I first told him it wasn't I mean it's been within the last five years. Oh yeah. Yeah. He kind of teared up, you know. It was like Well, because you know what I can recall that uh you don't recall much when you're enjoying your what you think is keeping you relaxed, your cocktails or whatever. But I do recall that moment. I [clears throat] I recall that coming home, seeing the boys, kissing the boys. You know what's um unique about this um talking about how good God is. I used to this makes me nobody special but um I used to pray to my I used to pray every night with Zayen Corbin whether I was at home or not. Eric I would step away at the bar and call and I was so comfortable at the bar. the bartender would say, "Jermaine, it's nine o'clock." And I would grab my phone and walk outside and call my wife and pray with my kids. And um and and just knowing, but I remember coming home, kissing the boys cuz they were already in bed. And then that's when I knew I was like, "Sarah knocked on the door." And that's when I said what I said to her. And and and it was just like the only time I've ever felt, man, she's wanting to be released from this marriage. Yeah. You remember how long after that you decided to quit drinking? You know, [clears throat] those moments he would I I would say it was probably from that moment. It wasn't long. [clears throat] It was maybe a year, less than a year behind that. That's good. He went through like a trial too, like where he was sober for a while and then was like, I don't think I have a problem. And then and then from that, like had um Yeah. It would have been longer than 11 years if I didn't take my little uh trial run. Mhm. Um, but it was I thank God for it. I thank God for that trial run and I thank God for the 11 years he's given me and Sarah standing with me through the whole 11. That's good. That's real good. I'm thankful that he gave you recovery and you fulfilled your vow. That's what recovery vow is, you know. Amen. Look, I want to say um this was your first podcast. First podcast. You did good. Thank you. You did great. [laughter] I don't know what you're worried about. Yeah, I was a little worried. No, I just want to say um you did really good. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast and hanging out with me, Miss Sarah. Thank you for coming on and letting everybody just have a peek inside what your life was like and what your life is like now. And you know, I just I commend you on doing the things that you want to do and and and being a good dad and being a good husband. Thank you. And for being a good mom and a good wife. I mean, it's just it means a lot. So, keep doing what you're.