Recovery Helped Me Become the Father I Never Had

In this special episode, the tables are turned as Recovery Vow founder and host Eric Kennedy joins Larry Hagner on The Dad Edge Podcast to share the story behind his recovery journey. Eric opens up about his battle with alcohol, cocaine, and crack addiction, multiple suicide attempts, divorce, and the road that ultimately led him to lasting recovery. He reflects on the childhood wounds that fueled his addiction, the mistakes he made as a husband and father, and the turning point that changed everything.

Now 15 years sober, Eric shares what he's learned about rebuilding trust, restoring relationships, and becoming a generational breaker instead of a generational blamer. He also discusses the principles behind his workbook, Marriage After Addiction, and why recovery is not just about the person struggling with addiction, but also the spouse learning to walk with them and rebuild trust.

For listeners who know Eric as the host, this episode offers a candid look at the story that led him to start Recovery Vow and the experiences that shaped its mission.

Connect with Larry Hagner:
Podcast: The Dad Edge
Website: https://thedadedge.com/

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Join our community collective: https://skool.com/recovery-vow
Order Marriage After Addiction Workbook here: https://a.co/d/0fcofUvM
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: https://www.recoveryvow.com/
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  Hey y'all. Welcome back to Recovery Vow. Listen, this week we're a little busy working on some things behind the scenes with inside the Recovery Vow Collective and Recovery Val as a whole. But I had the opportunity to sit down with Larry over at the Dad Edge podcast and we talked about not only recovery, but my recovery story and how Recovery Vow became what it is. I hope that you enjoy this episode. I'll see you again next week.

  [music]

  Welcome to Dad Edge, man. Dude, so honored. So honored to have you here, brother.

  Man, Larry, thank you so much. I'm glad we could get it to work this time. Sorry for the technical difficulties on my side the first time.

  That That is okay, man. Sometimes technology is our friend and sometimes it's our foe, but today it's in our favor, so we're just going to go with it.

  Yeah. Um well man I I want to start off with obviously your book which is uh marriage after addiction and I know um this was uh so there was an op opioid and an alcohol addiction. Correct. Yeah, that was a couple of them. Um it it got to a point where it was a lot of uh cocaine and crack too. Um but yeah, whatever I get my hands on. The only thing I I never did, Larry, was I never put a needle in my arm, but everything else.

  Wow, man. Um, just out of curiosity, what was what was the was did it start with alcohol?

  Yeah. Um, I would say that it took getting um what we'll call liquid courage to to just have the courage and um confidence to go do the next thing, right? I mean, once you get past a certain point, I remember going out and once I hit that sixth or that seventh, maybe that eighth beer, I'm like, "All right, what what what else we're going to do?" You know, how else can we, you know, see the sun come up? Um, how can we, you know, what what can we do? So, yeah, that was just that was just um people say weed is like a a drug or a gateway or whatever. I think alcohol is a gateway. I think alcohol is a huge gateway.

  Wow. So, what what did you normally like what did you normally find to do after like eight eight beers?

  Well, I mean, you know, eight beers doesn't sound like a lot, but I mean I got to the point where I was drinking beer um during high school, of course. Um I would say that I drank as a young adult and it was all like I just wanted to fit in with a certain group of people, but none of them were were ever my age for whatever reason. Like I had this one black guy that I hung out with. He's like 75 years old, but we smoked pots, snorted cocaine, and drank. And then we started drinking he would we would drink these double deuce beers after work every day. And then it got to the point where I started drinking brown liquor, you know, and it just it just evolved, you know, the more I could get in me and the different feelings that it gave me, like people, you've heard people say, "Oh, it makes me mean when I drink tequila." Or," and that's true. I mean, I don't know about the feeling. I never got mad. I was a pretty happy drunk, but I had a lot of depression and anxiety I was dealing with from like trauma that I'd never uncovered as a as a kid um until later on in life. And I and and I really think that addiction is um it's a disease, but I think the disease is uncovered through trauma and it just kind of that negativity in the way that you define yourself, you know, it's just it's buried in here. And then that confidence, that liquid courage I was talking about, it just gives you the ability to either open up and then just be able to tell yourself that you went through these things and you're the only person you're talking to about it. You become your own psychiatrist to an extent or you just kind of push it down. For me, I [clears throat] did a little bit of both. I I own those things so that I have to live with them, but then I just buried it as deep far back in my brain as I could and as deep and far away from my heart as I could. So it it almost made me become, you know, different people. Um I was never like a a working um person uh like a a functioning alcoholic or addict. I mean it caught up with me quick. Um but I was in it for for a good 15 years and at the end it was I was up to about a half a gallon a day of

  Canadian Club and I could drink I could drink a pint. You know pints picture like a liter. Um, I could drink a pint or a liter with one can of Diet Coke. You know, I would just take a sip just to that burn would knock the next burn, the burn of the Coca-Cola or Diet Coke, and it would just mask that that burning liquor feeling. And and the only reason I switched is because, Larry, it just it got me there quicker. But then it just took so much to get me to a state of like blackout. And that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be as blackout as often as possible because I just hate life. you mentioned, you know, trauma, especially in your book, and I know you had a had a dad uh well, your dad struggled with alcoholism. So, and then he also and he he really wasn't a violent person or anything like that from what from what I understand. And but he was emotionally unavailable. Is that correct?

  Yeah. Um that would be the biggest, you know, often times people hear you say trauma and they're like, "Oh, he got beat as a kid or sexually abused or something like that." you know, some of those things do happen to people, but then I really believe for guys, um, you have you have to have a a good present dad. Something's going to shift in your life. Um, it could be where you fall into addiction. It could just be where, you know, generationally you want to be a different father and you feel like you're blaming your dad. But you have to be a In my book, I talk about being a generational breaker, not a generational blamer. So, it I have to remember that it was my dad's first time being a dad. I was his first born. You know, the way that he was taught and brought up is different than the way that he taught and brought me up. But there was still some of that stuff that kind of just hung on. You know what I mean? That he just didn't know any better. And I would say that some of that shows through with with my two sons today. Like I've completely different as far as the way it was. But I'm still not perfect as a father. Like there's so many things. But I'm also raising two men that that I've raised exactly the same and they are completely different people. Um, and so I would say that my dad faced that with me. Um, my dad quit school in like sixth or seventh grade. Um, not because he had to, he wanted to. Um, but you know, he he went off to work, started working, helping around, you know, the house. I think, you know, it was just a strain for his parents. Um, and you know, growing up where he grew up at, um, it was just tough, man. It was, you know, way out in the country in South Carolina and and you know, why go to do that, you know, when I can go fish or hunt and drink and party and and u and just be a provider? And I think that's the way he was taught was just you got to provide. That's that's the only job you got, just provide. But, you know, that that provision helped. I mean, it got us through. But, um, he's upset with me now. It's funny that you brought my dad up. He he doesn't like talking about the past, you We didn't say I love you a lot when I was a kid. Uh my parents would split up every one, you know, every so often. And you know, there was times that me and my mom went lived in a shelter and then they would get back together. And I wanted my parents to be together, but there was a certain excitement and this sounds horrible, but there was a certain excitement when they were split up. Um that's that's whenever I could see a side of my dad that that I didn't see when they were together. like we had a trampoline and a Nintendo when they first came out when they were separated.

  You know, it's like he was trying to buy his way back in. And as a kid, I I wanted that. But, you know, I talk about the connection with the father. It's um it's important to have some kind of connection. And we never had a connection until I was drinking. When I was little enough to drink and we would go shoot pool together, then I kind of came along and I was in his lane. Now, mind you, I loved all that stuff, but it it wasn't what made me happy as a person. but being able to spend time with him. We played golf together and things like that, but that didn't come till later in life. I didn't really have that nurturing, hey man, I love you, however you want to figure out how to say it, as as as a young person to me or as a young father to me. It was it it it wasn't there. Um, we didn't take family photos together. Um, we I I just got some made. I gave them to my mom like two Christmases ago. I had a photographer come out and take pictures of my whole family including them because there's nothing where we went on vacation. We went on vacation one time. We went to Dollywood and um never went anywhere else. You know, it was just that. And so I carried that with me. Um it wasn't super traumatic, but it was a it was a it was a touch of trauma. There were things that happened in that relationship where I saw my dad drunk. I had to drive him home when I was like, I don't know, 11, 12 years old, you know, at night time from one small town to the next, you know, just seeing him like that. I know he's not proud of it and I don't think he knew the effects it would have on me, but it did. It did. Wow, man. Um, and I know, you know, kids who grow up the way you do, um, actually the way I did, it's like this sort of chronic emotional neglect. One of the things that I think adult children who grow up that way, we feel responsible for everybody else's emotions around us.

  Yeah.

  It's almost like we have to manage them in a way, which which is a dangerous thing. But did you did you come across that as well? Did you notice that in yourself?

  Well, [clears throat] I never wanted to control their situation. I knew that I wanted to control my situation. I didn't like where we lived at. I didn't like the small town, but I lived in a we I lived in a small mobile home and then we got a double wide when I was in high school. I remember them making the decision to move into this double wide.

  Um, which I was proud of them. You know, a step up for them. Um, but I knew that being in that small town, marrying some high school sweetheart and staying there within, you know, this small place was like a mile and a half by a mile and a half square. I wanted to get out as soon as I could, Larry. So, I remember my dad helped me get a job over in Augusta at the plant. You know, everybody works at the plant. So, he got me a job at the plant where he worked at. And, um, it was about an hour drive in the morning and an hour drive home. And in the morning, I was always late. I I got speeding tickets all the time. And on the way home, I would drink, you know, on the way home. And so, you know, I had this time alone in the car. And I'm like, why am I doing this? I don't want to be there. I can finally afford to move. So, I moved to Augusta. And that was my way out. It was to detach from from that life. And I feel like if I could detach from that life, I didn't have to feel like I was trying to detach from from them. Um, but I did.

  Ultimately, I wanted to kind of get away from that. Um, and just, you know, just as a young adult try to become somebody else, see what was out there, you know.

  Yeah. So, you're talking about Augusta, Georgia, right?

  Yeah. Yeah. We live I live in the big city of And Augusta's got a way of sucking you in, man. I'm telling you, I've been here for since 1997. I moved away a little bit. Traveled um when I didn't have a I wasn't married and didn't have any kids. And after 9/11, I was fired from a job for smoking weed and snorting cocaine. And you get I got busted at work. And then I got another job with uh TSA when they were being kind of created and formed. And so I I did a lot of traveling. Man, that was awesome though. I mean, I hate to say I'm glad I got fired for snorting cocaine, but I'm kind of glad I got fired for snort cocaine because I got to do all this travel, you know, and it was it was so much fun. But that was one of the first times I called Alcoholics Anonymous while I was living in Ketchacan, Alaska. And there is nothing to do there. That sounds beautiful. It is beautiful. Um but there's nothing to do there. Yeah, there isn't anything to do that. You said you've been there.

  I've been there. I love I mean, if I was like retired and old, I probably would have stayed. Um, but yeah, I was just wanting to party. I mean, so what there is to do, you you drink. We drank a lot. We drank these little um these these I can't remember the proper what was layered in there, but they were called I hate to say this on your show, but it was called a duck fart, and it was like uh Kalúa, Bailey's, and Crown, and when you poured it, it was it would layer. man, those people they they would just knock those things back. But it was like a certain I didn't know, you know, it wasn't a vibe then, but it was just a feeling you got like when you hear cool songs like a Dave Matthews or Pearl Jammer or something like that and you get that feeling like when you're with your, you know, first girlfriend or something like that. There's something about being away from home and traveling and really being on your own and you I remember just looking around and like, you know, being a little drunk or being a little high just like, man, I'm in Alaska right now or I'm in California right now or I'm in New York and this is from a, you know, a little poor kid near, you know, just I hate to say poor, but just a kid from from the little town of Wagner, South Carolina that grew up in a little trailer and now you're in Alaska. You know, I didn't fly on an airplane till I was 20ome years old. Wow, man. So, I mean, obviously there's a there's a a long history of this. When when did you meet your wife?

  Um, so my first wife, um, she used to date a roommate of mine and, um, she was great. Um, but she was also like my drinking and my drug buddy. And we felt all the things that you should feeling when you're, you know, in your early 20s. I had an Incuba CD and I came back from traveling. I bought like this new kind of new to me car. It was a Chevy Impala. I mean, I looked like I had it going on. I bought my first little house um and um back then there was no social media. There wasn't even smartphones, but there were um um u match.com. And I remember going to match.com when I got back and I saw her and I'm like, "Oh, that's the girl that used to date my my roommate." And I remember hanging out with her and she would um she would set me up with um you know, friends of hers and then I just asked her, I'm like, "Hey, I don't want you to set me up with anybody. I'd like to know if you want to go out. This was on match and we did. Uh I bought a box of uh I bought a box of white Zifendelle with the spot on it and a Fleetwood Max CD and a a Stoer's lasagna and had her come over for dinner on a Friday. And uh she she didn't leave. Uh she stayed. We we uh that was 2003 and um by 2007 we had our first kid who's uh 18 now. And um we got married in 2004 and stayed married until 2009ish, something like that. 2010.

  Um yeah, we had two two kids together.

  Um when you say she didn't leave, does that mean did she move in after that first date?

  Well, I meant that kind of as a joke. I mean, she um she was she was around like we we went in full-blown. Like I was I was asking her to marry me pretty quick.

  Um, I really I really I did love her. I mean, I was I was I was deep in it. I mean, she was way above any girl that

  I'd ever met in Wagner, you know? She's just that, oh, that's that city girl, you know. Um, but there was a certain there was just certain things that we shared at that age that just made her really cool to me and I was really cool to her from I don't know how how old are you, Larry? I'm 50.

  You're 50. All right. So, you remember the movie Never- Ending Story and Laugh stuff like that? Yeah, all those cool movies from like the 80s and 90s. We we love that. So, we would we would sit around and we would watch that. We would we would listen to music, you know, it was like Fleetwood Mac was like our it was just it was just a feeling, you know, that we felt, but it was all it wasn't real, you know, until we started paying bills together, you know, and it's like, okay, this we're not making really good decisions, you know, and uh but we we did have we had two really beautiful boys. uh Cameron who is like I said 18. Christian, my middle son is um going to be 17 this month in a couple of weeks. And [snorts] uh you know I was when they were babies I was getting to the the worst of the worst time. Um I wasn't treating their mom great. You know I'd given back a h that house I had North Augusta whenever her and I first started dating. I just gave it back to the bank. I said I don't want any responsibility. I just want to I'll just live with you. And I mean, it was just the way that my brain was working. It was it wasn't it wasn't good. Um, and we we fought through like we pushed through. We tried to make it work. We, you know, like I said, we were really really good friends and really really good together when drinking was involved. I mean, even like on Friday nights, I would go and get us a little bag of cocaine. We would kind of stay up and watch those movies I'm talking about and drink. But that's just not the way that a marriage is designed to be, you know. Um, so we fell in love with that look or that feeling, but that wasn't like what needed to keep us together.

  And I checked myself into a treatment facility. Um, it was like a detox facility in Aken, South Carolina. It's called Aurora. It's been it's like a mental hospital almost for, you know, just for you to kind of come off drugs. And I remember she told me, she's like, "Look, if you take that step, you there's nothing wrong with you. If you take that step, I don't know if we're going to be able to stay together." And I'm like, I got to take this step, you know. Um, so we separated when I got out of that. Um, and then that's when things really went downhill, you know, whenever she started, you know, filing for divorce or separation and I saw her with other guys. Um, and then I was I don't know how I did this, but I sweet talked my way into living in this this shelf, like a shelter or safe house for women of all places, but it was near the where I was working at. And I mean, I just couldn't afford a whole lot, you know, then. I couldn't. And I mean, I really got down deep into the addiction, man. I was a lot. I remember watching the sun come up, you know. I remember um drinking a you know, when you start drinking alone, it's a whole another place you go to. Started using alone. Started doing it in the morning more often. Um, and [clears throat] you know, we we separated, you know, we never I never signed the divorce papers until um later on, but we separated for probably a year or two. And we dated a little bit in there just to see. Um, but it was always the same. We would always fight over something stupid or it wasn't like even having a new girlfriend or something. But uh I tried to hurt myself uh one night in that in that in that room where you know I was staying and I tried to kill myself and it was just because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I got to see the boys every other weekend. I couldn't afford rent. You know I'm living at this shelter for these there was two other women living there. Um was drinking all the time. Car didn't barely run. I mean it's just a pathetic and you you look at the you know pathetic life. It was a pathetic life. And then um I remember waking up uh in the back of an ambulance and I remember waking up at the hospital and um so they they were I don't know how you know they they got got me but they revived me or whatever and when I woke up there was this doctor you know hovering over me and he's like man you're going to go live in this what they call Georgia regional it's for crazy people because you're suicidal.

  I'm like I'm not doing that. Um and so he released me to my parents. So at like 30, maybe 29 years old, I went and lived with my parents again in in Wagner. And you know, I thought maybe this would be like a like a little bit of a reset I could hit, but it just became further down the addiction and loneliness and depression that that I would take myself. Um, two DUIs, um, living with them, having a curfew, you know, I would I wouldn't even worry about that curfew. I would just stay. I would sleep in my car somewhere. Uh that's when I really uh got into crack because I I saw this these small white uh rocks and I'm like I can I can afford that and maybe it makes me high stay high longer. And so I would I would do that and and I would do that, you know, with drinking. I didn't even have to have a drink and I was smoking crack. So I mean I didn't need the liquid courage anymore, you know. [snorts] And what that does to your brain is insane. It it

  What does it do to your bra? I I don't know anything about crack. I mean, only what I studied it back in college, but that was a long time ago.

  Yeah. Um, so it's, you know, it's it's crack is, you know, it's chemical based, cocaine, you know, mix it with baking soda, cook it up, all this kind of stuff, and then you chop it up, make these rocks out of it, and you smoke it. But [clears throat] it's so addictive. Um, I remember, man, I I would drive to the dope mans with my kids in the car. I was wearing pajamas. Um, if he needed something, I would go steal, beg, or borrow anything he needed because if I didn't have money, I was going to make sure I gave him something, right? He, you know, so in your brain, it just it it turns you in, like I said earlier, it just turns you into somebody else. Um, and there was not one moment, um, where I cared like if if if he needed if he needed a washer and dryer, I remember going to get a washerd dryer in a different state just for that that relationship that we would have together that I could say, "Hey, man, I need you to front me $60 worth, hey, got that washer and dryer for you." And the work that I did to nurture the relationship with him should have been the work I did as a husband and as a father, but I didn't, you know. So, I was living in this little tiny tiny mobile home. I'd finally moved out of my parents. Cameron and Christian would come see me every other weekend. And um I would drink on the way to meet them uh meet their mom to get them. I would drink on the way home. I don't know if there was a few times I even changed. I mean, they were in diapers. I don't know if I changed their diapers a couple times that they just they would say from Friday to Sunday. I mean, I was I was a horrible person, but I cared more about what I needed. Um, like Larry, I would I would leave them laying in the bed at nighttime to go get drugs. Um, I'd leave them alone and uh, god forbid I didn't get a thank God I didn't get like a car wreck or you know, somebody would stop by the house just to check on me or check on them. Uh, you know, that's not something I'm proud of, but I'm just You ask what it does to your brain. It it it it takes all your sense away. I had zero common sense. Um it it made uh the drug made itself number one in my life and whatever it took to get it when I needed it, which was it became every day about every 3 to four hours I had to have something whether it was taking another drink or smoking crack or snorting a line, whatever. Man, oh man. And so when did when did your second wife come into the picture? Okay, this lady. Um, so the second time I tried to hurt myself, I was in that little mobile home in Wagner and um, with your parents or is this your own place? This was what I was my own place. The rent the rent there was $400 a month and I was renting from the lady that was my babysitter when I was a kid. Um, it was a really really old mobile home. It was I don't know if you ever seen a mobile home before that's like from the 60s. It had a front door on this end and then I don't know why I'm doing but like picture one on the right side and one the left side. There was no back door. And the reason there was a door on the left side is because that's where the washer and dryer would go in at and the hallways were too tight. You couldn't make the turn. So that the door would open up right where a stackable unit would go. [sighs] Um, and so I'm telling you that because I want you to picture how small this was. Um, but I I was in there one night um, and I tried to hurt myself and and I didn't. I woke up the next day. I took three bottles of Tylenol PM just thinking I would go to sleep and never wake up. Well, I woke up the next morning. Wait, three bottles? Three bottles. And I don't know. It was like a counteractive because I was using crack that night, too. And I'd gotten two two pints at Canadian Club. But man, the next day I woke up like I remember the the truck that was running outside. There was always this kid going to high school. And he would rev his truck up on the way going to school like 7:30 in the morning. And I remember hearing that truck and I looked at the windows. There were plastic on my windows and I'm like, "Well, damn. It it didn't work, you know? Damn. So, um, that morning I got up and, um, I went and got, I think it was 40 or maybe $60 worth of crack fronted to me. It was, this was the last time I saw my dope, man. Uh, I went there. I had about a pint left and, um, I said, "Hey, please just give me this. Um, I don't have any money, but um, I don't feel good and I I need it." Um, so 7:30ish, 7:45ish, I get back home. Um, and I got I got arrested that morning for um panhandling because when I didn't have it or if he didn't need things, I would I would ask people for money um to support my habit if you know I cut grass or something like that. I would I would and so somebody turned me in for pan handling and then somebody else turned me in for pan handling. And so the mayor of the town, this small little town, maybe 500 people and two officers and my little mom come over to that trailer. I'll never forget it was on September 12th I think uh 2010 and uh you know they put me in handcuffs, took me to jail. I spent um two weeks in jail. But what they don't know is when I got home that morning from using it was the second time. First time I was in Ketchan, Alaska. The second time I ever called for help was that morning. I said, "Look, I'm I'm done." I remember calling this place in Florida. And because I worked for this small town, I had what they call local state benefits. since I had really good benefits and didn't know it. But those benefits paid for me to go to a 30-day treatment facility. And I thought because I had called that facility that they would let me go. Um but they didn't. They they took me to jail. And so when I got out of jail in two weeks, you know, my mom my mom bailed me out. And uh the Miss Judge Williamson, she's a friend of my family. She was the the county judge. She said, ' Eric, if if you were serious about this, you need to call that place back or I'm going to have to send you to prison for a little while. I said, 'I serious, judge. I'll I'll call them.' So, I called him back, Larry. And um they wouldn't take me because they considered the two weeks in jail detox. And I said, "Well, just give me a few minutes. I'm going to go get high and I'll call you back." And that doesn't work. Um so, I called another facility. Um and this is getting to how I met my second wife. Um I spent 30 days in treatment in Florida. um and just really poured into what it what it would take to stay sober. Um it it not only did it cost me so much money to get to the point of of going through this really expensive program, but man, I had nothing else to lose. I mean, I couldn't kill myself and I wasn't living the life I wanted to live. So, I mean, I was I was ready to try something different, right? Um so, I did. I I worked that program and I mean, I completely detached from the world. I mean just completely is you know what I don't care about the kids right now and this is what I'm talking about that healthy selfishness that we you know some of the questions in the beginning [snorts] um because if I'm not here it doesn't matter if I care about them or not does that make sense so senseI completely completely unplugged from life and I I mean I was looking at it like I need to hit this life reset button I had no bills I had no kids I had no wife I had no parents no family down there that cared about me. Matter of fact, they didn't care if I was there or anywhere else, just as long as I wasn't around them. So, I I did the work. I had a plan when I got out uh to go live in a they call it a halfway house or sober living house, but somewhere else that uh where you could pay to stay. Um you had to work to pay and then you had to go to meetings. Um so, I would go to these meetings two or three times a day. My first job out in the real world was serving beer and chicken at a Wings and Ale. Um it was a bar, but I mean I wanted to be close to this house. I didn't want to be carted all around. You know, the city where I was living at at this point was in Colombia. [snorts] Um that was the transition plan. And you know, I went for about 3 months and and Cameron and Christian's mom uh we started talking a little bit. She's like, you know, I think if this is how you're going to be, you know, in this sobriety thing, maybe maybe we can make this work. And I said, look, you got to understand that I'm not going back to that. I mean, and I was I was down hard in my sobriety. Like, I I don't know what this life's going to look like, but I know 90 days in it looks really a lot better than what it's looked like the last 10 years. So, we did, we tried for um I remember she came and picked me up and the house that her and I lived in, she wasn't living there anymore. She was renting a house in Augusta. So, I went from Columbia back to Augusta, but man, it was awesome at first. Not only I got I got to hang out with her and and see how this could work, but I mean, I got to see the boys every day, every day. Uh I got back into the kind of work that I was doing, you know, prior to project management, uh and logistics management. Uh and so I really enjoyed that. I I enjoyed that, um family feel, you know.

  Um, we made it about 9 months though and I I knew that that our marriage wasn't going to be strong enough to to do this the way that it needed to be done. Um, so I decided to file for divorce. U, this was the first divorce that ever got filed that we actually went through with. And, um, this is not a plug at at my ex-wife. We are we are friends now.

  Um, and we we've been friends since then, but I was given custody of Cameron and Christian at nine months clean. And so, not only was I responsible for myself, I had to be responsible for these two little nuggets that one was Christian was still in diapers when I got enforced. So, um, that was a lot of responsibility I was about to face. So, me and Cameron Christian moved into an apartment. Um, I I went about two years into my sobriety. Uh, and I was going to this 12step meeting. Those became my friends. I didn't have any of the same old friends, you know. Those people became my friends and helped me kind of figure out how to do a budget even when you don't have money. You know, how do you budget? Um, you know, how do you live on your own? You know, at first you're not supposed to date or get a pet or a plan or anything. Well, I've got two kids, so you know the hell would what that means or what that why you say that. My situation is different. Um, but one of the girls in there, um, you become no matter how you look, you become kind of attractive to people when you're a single dad, you've got two kids, and you just trying. It was just it was people wanted to see me do well. And there was this one girl um that invited me to church and I wasn't a churchgoer, you know. I it just wasn't my thing, you know. I remember going when I was a kid to these Baptist churches and nothing wrong with Baptist. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it just wasn't my thing. But I said, "Okay, I'll go." Um there was this church there having an Easter service. It was it was a church called Stevens Creek Church.

  And I'm like, "Well, what else?" You know, what what could hurt? Um I knew that I wasn't perfect. Um so I wasn't there going there to become perfect. I was just going really to shut this girl up. But man, I [clears throat] walked in with Cameron a Christian at this Easter service and um it was like the pastor um who's my boss now and I'll get to that in a minute.

  But um it's like he emptied the room and it was just me and him in there and it was like he was talking directly to me and it was like he was he knew everything I was supposed to hear that day. I mean to the point, Larry, I was I was wiping tears away from my face like this. It's like I mean it it I couldn't stop crying and I don't know if it was because I started to feel feelings that I wasn't ready to feel these these first two years in recovery or first year in recovery. Um but it hit it hit on me. I wasn't I wasn't ready to like be a a Jesus juker or like you know all this handing out Bibles or preaching to people. I don't want to do any of that. I still not called to do that. But for me it was just I finally had some kind of connection and understood why some people went to church. And Cameron and Christian didn't mind it. And so I was I was serving um the church on Sundays. I I served on like the safety team. Um Cameron and Christian, they would go visit their mom every other weekend. And then the weekends they were home, you know, I made sure they were with me at church and and we were there every day. The doors were open. And then that's where Kristen, my wife, came in. I I I would sit in um seat C3. We had these these seats mounted to the floor and auditorium. Always kind of sat by myself. It was the third row um third row back third seat in. I don't know why, but I sat in C3 and and she sat to the right and she she sat by herself sometimes and I just remember um reaching out to her on Facebook and that sounds so cheesy, but I'm by this time I'm [gasps] 30ome years old with two kids. I mean, I don't know how to do the dating thing and I I can't go out to bars and you know, so

  [snorts]

  I spotted her. Um, and I finally got the the nerve to ask her out. Um, and I had dated, right? I had dated since my divorce.

  Nothing. There was never nothing there. I dated some really great girls. Um, but none of them really just connected with me. Um, but Kristen and I said, "Hey, I'd love to take you out and and I wanted to do something different." I didn't tell her that I was I didn't drink or do drugs or anything like I didn't feel like that was necessary, but um I wanted to do something kind of special. So, in Augusta, there's a small airport called Daniel Field. And back then, I don't know what it is now, but like for 150 bucks, you can charter, it sounds expensive, but it's not. You can charter a plane for 30 minutes. And this small little Cessna will take you up, take off and they fly up Washington Road over the Augusta National, which is where the Masters has played. Take you up to the lake. You watch the sunset over the water in a plane and then they fly you back. It was incredible. Um, we did that and then we went to the movies and um I think it was that night or the next night I went on Facebook and put us in a relationship and that pissed her off. So we stopped we kind of stopped dating and then I I I undid that and I was like, "Look, I just don't know. you know, I don't know what, you know, are we supposed to be dating for a while before we say we're, you know, together or what? You know, that was kind of when Facebook was still had like, well, what are you doing? And you finish the sentence, you know, so it was I thought that's what you do. Anyway, it's not you don't do that, guys. Said watch this podcast. Um, so you know, we dated we dated for a while and then um we we dated uh in two 2013 2014 um I think it was 2014. No, it was 2013 on Thanksgiving I asked her to marry me. I was scared to death. You were two years sober into this? I was three years by this point. So I got invited to this church on Easter. I met her and then by the next year we were dating. Um she gave me my three-year chip uh in September. My my sobriety date is September 27th. Um so after the two weeks in jail and then getting home, found a place to go to and then went away um to Florida for that treatment. Uh took off on the 26th and landed um after midnight. Uh so I considered the 27th my sobriety date. But yeah, she gave me my three-year chip and um we have got the absolute um best marriage in my eyes. Now, does that mean things are perfect? Absolutely not. That's what makes it the best is because we can walk through hard times and get to the other side where um the Cameron Christian's mom, we couldn't walk through the hard time. We we kind of stayed in it and then and it just lived there. So, let me let me jump in here because I I want to get to how we do this. Um, so obviously your book, right, this is Marriage After addiction.

  At the same time, um, you weren't with her when you were addicted, but I think that these these principles that you write about, whether you're addicted to something or not, these are fantastic um, I think things to bring into a relationship. So radical ownership is one thing that you talk about in the book. Um rebuild trust through consistent action. I I've got a really really specific question around that one if you're cool with it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll answer any question you got. So I would love for you to talk about radical ownership for sure. And I don't know if these two can be intertwined, but um you know this is for all this question I'm about to ask. It's for all my guys out there who are really trying to rebuild intimacy, connection, [clears throat] um closeness, you know, fun, um playful energy, like all of these things, right? And and the a lot of the guys that I work with, right? Let me just kind of describe who they are. A lot of the guys who come and knock on on my virtual door, they they they want help with marriage because that's that's one of the things that that I'm probably the best at when it comes to helping men with with relationships is we start with marriage, right? Because I truly believe that if you can get the marriage right, the rest of the rest of your life can kind of fall into into suit, right? So like get your marriage on point, you're probably going to be a more calm, patient father, right? get your marriage on point, you're probably going to be physically health healthier physically, mentally, and emotionally. If your marriage is on point, you're probably even going to be a better producer at work, right? But it's it's really doing that. And but the thing is is that society really doesn't set a lot of us up for that, you know? In fact, we we kind of come most of us come from a traumatic background where we really didn't see like this great marriage with our own parents. So, we we maybe saw them coexist or we come from a a family that was divorced. Very rarely do I ever run into somebody who is like, "Man, my parents are still so in love with each other. It was awesome just to watch them as I grew up." Right? So, um, the biggest thing that I see though when men are trying to rebuild their marriage is rebuilding that trust. And this is what they run into. They're like, "Man, I'm doing the right thing and she's still talking about all the things that I did wrong. No matter how much good I do right, she's like keeping this runninglist of everything I've ever done wrong. Or if I screw up even just a tiny tiny bit, which I am cuz I'm human, I break that trust all over again. So like this consistency that guys are really faced with, I see this as a serious problem because they they they trip up a lot. I mean, we're human. We're not going to be mistake free. So I would love for you to really talk about this radical ownership and rebuilding thrust trust through uh consistent action. Yeah, I think I think what you're talking about and I'll I'll answer this probably several different ways, Larry, is if I look at this book that I wrote, which I can't believe I wrote a book. I mean, who the heck does that? Um, so I'm very grateful for that. Um,

  [cough]

  [clears throat]

  uh, it's chapter three in the book is called Finding Rhythm in Recovery. What that talks about is as an addict, um, you have to have a healthy selfishness.

  So when people ask me for help, one of the first questions I always ask is, well, do they want it? You know, like a lot of families will reach out or spouses will reach out. Well, do they even want it? You know, for for 15 years, I didn't want it and if they got an issue. But it was until I understood that I want it. And I'm not doing this for Cameron. I'm not doing it for Christian. I'm not doing it for my wife.

  I'm not doing it for their mom. I'm not doing it for my parents. I'm not doing it for the past. I'm not doing it for the future. I'm doing it for me. and I'm doing it for right now.

  That that ownership is what you have to figure out as you rebuild who you are.

  You're going to be in process the rest of your life.

  You you don't spend time wasting trying to figure out why or what kind of process you were in in the past. And don't really concern yourself with the, you know, how are you going to get to the the point of who you want to become in the future. That all happens with the process that you're in right now. And that's the ownership that you have to have. So, there's a healthy balance in that. You don't want to come across as a as a kind of a a douchebag or a know-it-all or or something like that. You want to come across as someone that is very humble in their uh selfishness and can speak with kindness and speak with um generosity and can speak with authority. but a very kind authority if that makes sense. But it all comes with time. You you know you don't you you think just because I went to treatment for 30 days as soon as I got out you think that my ex-wife or my parents you you think it fixed every bridge that I burned? No, it didn't. And and it probably won't. They'll they'll have that in the back of their mind forever. They'll be proud of me for you know I'm 15 years in now. So yeah, they'll be proud of me. But you know, Kristen gets to live in the benefits of what it's like for to have healthy selfishness in recovery because I choose this before I choose them. So if you look at like a pecking order from a spiritual standpoint, it's supposed to be like God as you understand him. And when I say it that way, it's because there's so much more I need to understand about God. You know who that higher power is. And then it's your spouse and then it's your kids and then it's your family. So the reason that it's in that order is so that mentally you know that that's the part that I play. Now if you're looking at that as like the spine like a human spine. It's like God then there's this other little part of the spine your wife. Another part of the spine is your kids. Another part of the spine is your family. Well in between each one of those um bones or whatever you call it there's that spinal fluid. Well that spinal fluid in this case is your sobriety. And you have to choose that. you know, that goes along with every one of those. Without that, you're gonna be in pain, if that makes sense. Um do I do that to the absolute best of my ability? Yes. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. I'm always going to be in process trying to figure this out. The reason I wrote this book was just one day when I'm not here, I just want to know that I'm still helping people and I want it to be as free as possible. recovery is expensive and I that's what I want to change is the way that people get to a point of recovery. Um I just want them to have another resource. You know, we we we are the mechanics of our life and we need all the tools we can get. This is just another tool in the toolbox.

  It's not supposed to rewrite anything.

  You know, if you need outpatient treatment or inpatient treatment or counselors or anything like that, do it. Do all of that. But this this book this book is actually written to my first wife [snorts] because when I got out of treatment if if she had a resource not saying this could have changed the marriage or saved the marriage but at least she would had an understanding of where I was coming from. And so it's written as a workbook. So at the end of every chapter there's there's questions that you answer from your point of view as a person that's in recovery. Well, you're both really in recovery.

  But then there's questions that the supporting spouse answers. There's nothing out there um for the supporting spouse that that I can find except for counselors. There's Alanon and then there's a chapter in the big book of Alcoholics [clears throat] Anonymous to the wives. Well, sometimes now the wives are the ones that are in addiction. So that needs to be a chapter to the husbands, too. But there's not a lot out there. So, this this book is written so that two people that are married can walk through recovery together because they didn't walk in addiction together, but now they get to walk into recovery together if they choose to, you know. So, I hope that kind of answers some of the question questions about healthy selfishness and and why that's important. There's a lot of other important things in there from, you know, there's no um I don't I'm not a sex therapist or anything like that, but it talks about, you know, letting intimacy return to the relationship when that when that's right because it was just you're just checking a box probably in your addiction, you know, and sometimes you do that in in regular marriage life, but just from making your spouse laugh like I can have hard conversations with Kristen now. if I can get her to laugh and kind of ease into something that we just need to discuss, you know, instead of, you know, plan it sometime to sit down, but catch them when you got them in a good mood. Um, especially when you're walking through your recovery because it gives you an opportunity to talk about those times when you really screwed up. You want to say, "Babe, I'm I'm sorry." There's a difference between making amends and saying, "I'm sorry." When you say, "I'm sorry," you're you're owning your responsibility in that. When you make amends, you're just trying to make the situation right. So you just had to fig figure out which which one you're doing there. But I mean, man, this this has become a great tool. Um so I've done what I prayed about and I wanted to be I want to leave some kind of legacy and and I'm grateful that I've done that. Let's talk about your boys. Okay. Um what is what has that been like as far as um mending that relationship, those relationships? Some people don't agree with me um when I say this, but I've told them everything.

  I mean, every Yeah, I do. I I've told them everything when it comes to the the way that my brain worked in the addiction. And and I wanted them to see me and not define me, but now they can see me as I'm just being transparent. Um and I want them to know that I've done that for them. Like, please don't go and do this. I'm telling you, it sucks. Um, now like I said earlier, like I've raised these two boys and they're they're grown up almost men now. Um, one's going to graduate high school next year, the other one just graduated last year. But I've I've raised them the exact same way and one is going that way and one's going this way. And it's just because they're becoming their own person, you know. Um, when I was in treatment, I remember them teaching us how to meditate. It was really cool. Like I some of these things just never heard of it before, you know, from where I grew up at. So, when they talk about meditation, I was like, "All right, let's go." But I remember this one moment, I'll never forget it. Um, they said, "I want you to close your eyes." And they played this this um score or whatever, a song.

  It wasn't a song. Nobody was singing, but it was just this meditation music, right? you get in this this moment and it wasn't supposed to take you to like this other place but in your spiritual mind you know they want you to envision um I remember them saying I want you to envision yourself being in a warm space maybe you're outside maybe you're on a beach and see yourself on the beach feel your feet walking in the sand all of these things that would kind of almost hypnotize you know that you're you can see this but you still know you're in reality you're in this room at this place in Florida right but in this warmth and and walking in the sand and you see this you see the coast and you go to walk toward the the water and you see the small piece of land that's accessible um and you see people on that that land and these people are okay but then you see some of these people and and they want to get closer to you and so you start walking toward that that piece of land and you can still feel the the sand in between your toes. You can still feel the warmth of being outside and you see these people walk towards you and then you you get really close to them and they asked who do you see? And I saw Cameron and Christian as grown men at like 30 something years old and I knew then that I'm I'm glad that I didn't end my life. You know, I'm glad that I'm still here.

  So that's where the thankfulness started coming into play. It was like I was thankful to be a daddy. Um, I was and those and after those nine months and and us being just me and Cameron Christian living in an apartment together after the divorce. I'm a horrible mom. I'm a sucky mom. I do dishes. I don't do laundry. Um, I'm a really good dad though. And um, yeah. I mean, I'll get emotional if I talk about it because I mean that's a that's what I mean when I say generational breaker, not generational blamer. I'm not saying I'm better than my dad, but he showed me things where I just wanted to improve. And I didn't get a chance to do that till I was in recovery. And now that I'm in recovery and I've been 15 years in recovery, it's kind of like I got to grow up with them.

  You know, I'm older than them, but that's what I was thinking.

  [clears throat]

  I I kind of got to grow up with them.

  Um, and did they have everything? No, but they had everything they needed, you know. Um, we lived off Pop-Tarts and Mexican food for a really long time, Larry. But they were happy, you know, and and I've asked them during some of the convers Cameron's been on the my podcast, you know, I've had him on the podcast. I just talked about, you know, I know some of the and I told him like, man, I left you alone at night. I'm sorry that I did that. Um, he don't remember any of that, but at least he knows his dad owns it. You know, Christian um is is my middle son, my my youngest son. Um I don't worry about him, but he's just like me, so I think he's going to want to see for himself, if you know what I mean.

  And I just have to try to be as cautious as I can and guard if I can, but I'm just not going to be a helicopter parent and and try not to get in the way. But just hope that I've led as best as I can because here's the goal is that even though my dad uh could have done a lot things better for me, I could have done a lot more better. And now I'm hoping that these boys will choose to do a lot better than me or their granddad. Does that make sense? just like just just continue being that generational breaker. Don't blame me cuz I didn't blame him and don't don't blame yourself. Just just do better.

  I love the fact that you share this journey with your boys. And I I was actually, you know, putting the the years together with how old your boys are, I was kind of thinking the same thing. I was like, man, it's kind of like they almost grew up together.

  Um and I I can relate to that because I I have felt the same about my own boys, you know, and my my oldest is almost 20. Wow. Um so I can I can really relate to that.

  It's kind of like when you when you really didn't have much of a childhood or it was it was maybe filled with a little quite a bit of uncertainty or trauma or whatever. It's, you know, you have a second shot at it to break the pattern and then, you know, do something different with your own kids, but also relive maybe even your own childhood through your own. Um, I got to tell you, man, um, you're insanely brave to to talk about this. You're insanely brave to to write about this. um and even braver to be so open with your boys and and use it as a way to say, "Hey, you know, just don't go down this road. It sucks. It's it's not fun." Yeah. I think um I think with with all of that experience, it goes so much further, I think, and deeper than, you know, a dad who maybe isn't into, you know, drugs or anything like that and them trying to tell the tell his kids not to do that.

  And his kids might be like, "Yeah, but you don't understand." You know, it's like but but you know, obviously someone with your experience with how far this went, like the depth of how far this went, like you know, the darkness, like the absolute darkness, hopelessness, despair that that goes along with like how far addiction can really get us down the road to where we're, you know, we're, you know, attempting to end our lives over it.

  Yeah. But, um, thank you.

  And I hope I'm sorry. Go ahead, Larry.

  I was just going to say thank you for bringing the brave one to talk about this and write about this. That's all I want to say.

  Yeah. You know, if I'd have if id attempted to do this in my first year or two in sobriety, I it wouldn't it wouldn't be beneficial to anyone. It it it took me doing this for 15 years to just work on myself, you know, be that dad, you know, become that that husband and then just enjoy it. And then Kristen and I have a we, you know, the boys have a sister now. We have a she just turned eight on Friday. So, I have a little girl now. Her name is Charlie Kate. And um man, you thought you I thought I love those boys and I do, but you get a little girl.

  I mean, I'd push them in front of stuff for her if I needed to, you know, like it's just I love that little girl.

  And um and now I get to enjoy being a dad to boys and a dad to a girl. And so I've just walked in life. Um you know, it was two years ago when I said I was just I want to write this. I want to write a book. I didn't have any idea it was going to be called Marriage After Addiction. I was going to speak to couples in the beginning. I thought I was just supposed to write my story and let it be like left behind for churches and counselors and things like you like you know a doc um what's it called? A autobiography almost.

  Yeah.

  The publisher said no let's let's do let's do something else. And so they challenged me to come up with with some kind of a workbook and that's where this came from. The the name recovery vow was the original name I had for the book and that became my nonprofit. Um, so we, you know, it it's funny, you know, I used to go around door to door to get money for, um, for drugs. Now I have to go door to door to get money to raise for a nonprofit so I can give all this stuff away to other people. But I love it. I mean, um, we we have Recovery Vow and and we have the book, we have a podcast, we have our own we have our own brand of coffee now that we we we u we pedal. Um, and and I I love that because, you know, I could do shirts and hats like that kind of merch, but people drink coffee every day, especially in recovery. They either smoke cigarettes or drink coffee and I didn't feel like hustling Marbrells and Winston. So I just partner with a group out of North Carolina. We get some really really good coffee and then we have what we call the Recovery Val Collective now and that's where people can come on monthly and and hang out with me and just um do one-on-one coaching and do some workshops and stuff like that and they help I help them with their marriages um practically super easy stuff. Um, and then we do what you're doing with podcasts and just like I said, man, recovery has become um a way that that people need to connect just like going to a gym or to a church.

  Like if everybody got what they wanted from from Golds and I'm not plugging Golds because they're a provider or supporter of recovery val.

  I'm saying it like there wouldn't be a need for anything else, you know? But people get what they need by trying different things. So, if you get recovery by going through Recovery Vow and and we help you take your next step, great. You know, we get these emails and these testimonies back now uh from people that either listen to the podcast or read through the book or go through the collective and and they're sharing stories um of how it fixed their marriage and you like I see I just got an email from a young couple. They're in their late 20s and they have four kids and he was in treatment and she was at home with these kids and she found the podcast and then they got the book and did the book together and he's home and he's got over a year sober and they're they're healthy, you know. It's like and it's not about me. It's like they found something that worked um and then they're taking it and giving it to other people, you know. It's just been it's been incredible um to see.

  That is so cool, man. where where can the guys connect with you and uh find your book and all that good stuff?

  So, for my young guys, we're on Tik Tok and Instagram. If you're geriatric like me, we're on Facebook. Um we're on YouTube. Um but you can email me direct recoveryv@gmail.com and um that comes direct to me. And uh you know if any any of your audience want to uh connect or or just want to reach out direct or just hear more about my story if they just need to vent or share something about theirs or just ready to take another step in a different direction and I'll be glad to help whoever however. Awesome man. Well, I'm going to have all your links in the show notes for just to make it super easy on the on the audience. If you guys go to the dadedge.com/1417 for this show, again, the dadedge.com/1417, I'll have all the goodies in there for you, all the links in there for you, uh link to your book as well, uh your website as well, uh recovery vow as well. Um but, uh I got to tell you, man, um thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for being brave and sharing your story and and helping uh not only marriages that are impacted by addiction, but just marriages in general, because I think a lot of the same rules apply.

  Yeah. And if you think about it, Larry, um this is this is what I tell a lot of people now. If if people really think about it, everybody's in recovery from something. It doesn't have to be a substance addiction or a process addiction. We had um this past year we had uh Quinton Aaron from he played the the giant guy in the bl the blind side.

  He's in recovery not from drugs and alcohol, but he came from a single parent family, you know, just that's what that kind of recovery is like. We we had Jeremy Jackson from Baywatch on.

  Now, he was in addiction, but next month we've got uh Tanner Smith from Love on the Spectrum. Tanner's got a huge following right now, and and I'm not trying to plug that, but his parents need to share with other parents what it's like to raise a child that has autism. Now, here's why that's important. When people, maybe they're younger than I am, and they go through and and and they get into recovery, they didn't even know that these life on life terms, these curveballs get thrown at you, and you may have a child with autism. Well, this is how that family walked through that. Just real life practical conversations on what they did so they have some kind of a resource and they don't feel like they're alone in it.

  Does that make sense? Makes sense.

  Yeah. Yep. So, I'm just having fun with it. It doesn't feel like a job. Just Just having fun with it.

  That's when the best things happen is when they it doesn't feel like a job and you're having fun with it. I know. I love that, man.

  Well, like I said, guys, head on over to dadedge.com1417 for this for this show. Um, I'll have all the links, Eric's links in there for you. Uh, and Eric, thank you so much for coming on today.

  Yeah, man. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate Larry. Appreciate you back, man.