Rebuilding Love: Brandon on Healing, Mediation & Recovery | Recovery Vow Podcast

In this powerful episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with Brandon from XO Marriage, a marriage mediator and coach helping couples rebuild connection after crisis. Together, they discuss what real healing looks like after addiction, betrayal, or years of disconnection—and how humility, faith, and intentional work can bring restoration to any relationship.

Brandon shares how mediation and marriage intensives help couples move from chaos to clarity, offering practical tools to strengthen communication, rebuild trust, and rediscover love. Eric opens up about his own experience walking through recovery with his wife, and how the process of writing love letters and confronting deep wounds can tear down walls that have been up for years.

This heartfelt conversation reminds us that recovery doesn’t just restore sobriety—it rebuilds relationships, families, and faith from the inside out.

On This Episode:
How marriage intensives guide couples toward lasting change
Why crisis often becomes the wake-up call for transformation
The power of humility and surrender in rebuilding trust
How unity and faith bring clarity amid chaos
Practical tools for communication and healing in marriage

Connect with Brandon and XO Marriage: https://xomarriage.com


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• Transcript

  Hey, on today's episode, I'm going to sit with Brandon White. Now, Brandon is in charge of the Exo Institute marriage intensive courses that are offered here and kind of just overseeing how that looks and how that's ran. One of the reasons I I was so honored that he came on is that we just we're just going to dig in in this conversation and talk about what it looks like to go through an intensive. But if you want to become uh an exo mediator or become an intensive coach, he's going to talk a little bit about that. uh in the description, we'll give you a link to uh connect with EXO or with Brandon directly and uh you guys can can go from there. But just enjoy this episode. Uh if you're not already doing so, you can follow us on YouTube and subscribe there to watch this episode or any of our past episodes. And if you're not uh following us on our social media platforms, please do so. Give us a like on Facebook or Instagram. If you'd like to reach out to me direct, you can do so by going to recovery val@gmail.com. I hope you enjoy this time I spend with Brandon. [Music] All right, before we get started with my guest today, Brandon, who is uh here at Exo Institute and he handles and oversees the marriage intensives that happen here, um I wanted to pick something from marriage after addiction um that I wrote here with the team at EXO. Uh and what I thought would would go really well with with today's topic would be um chapter 13 from the book is walking with others through their mess. And that's kind of where once you as a couple have gone through this process, you can then have the resources and the power or the tools um to walk with or give that to someone else. And so as you read through that workbook and get to that point um understand that it is a process. This is not a a race or a marathon. It's it's just a process. But it kind of leads into the reason that um XOI has these marriage intensives and and I want to talk to Brandon about that. Um, and so we'll open up um into what that looks like here and and maybe how an intensive is structured and if you need to contact EXO and walk through a marriage intensive mediation uh with uh any of the team here. Uh we'll give you some information in the description on how to do that. Uh but let's let's go right into it. Brandon, thanks for for coming on the podcast, walking downstairs and being here with us. That's right. It was hard. It was a long journey. Uh but in all honesty, uh I've gotten to know you over the past few years from just kind of networking and um uh coming alongside what you guys are doing. I went through the training with my wife two years ago and I think it's great and I know that you're kind of structuring it, but you know, for the the viewers that are tuning in, I just want to just jump right into it. If I was a couple that's um needing marriage intensive, what does that look like? Yeah. No. And that's I mean that's a great question. We our focus is more teaching and training couples how to do marriage God's way because their way is not working. And so really the intensive format which I've done for 14 years is this process of discovery which means we're understanding really where are we out of alignment relationally and then how to get back into alignment which really starts with transformation in the sense of renewing the way that we're seeing and engaging in those issues. Okay because the way we're thinking about it and then the consequence that follows it's not working. So, so you're an LPC, right? No, I have my masters, but I'm not licensed. So, explain the difference. Um, why this is not counseling? Yeah. So, counseling focuses more on treatment or therapy. Maybe if you're dealing with an addiction or, you know, there's a current affair or abuse going on in the relationship, that really means more individual help is needed maybe for both depending on what's going on. And so that is really the difference or if there's maybe a deep trauma or wound that's happened that man we're just so stuck in and maybe it's even manifesting itself in some sort of disorder or something of that nature. So we are aware of that but that's not something we engage in because it just tends to hinder the process of the intensive. One of the questions I had whenever we went through the training was you just mentioned the three A's, the addiction, the abuse or the adultery. um before a couple is ready to get to that point of of coming to you guys. Is there a certain amount of time that you would like to see go by before you try to fill the gap of those three? So, should I be in sobriety for at least 3 weeks, 3 months, a year, you know? No. And that's great to understand. I think it's different. I think part of it is the motivation of the person to want to change and seeing sustaining change. Really, you want to see it managed. Okay, which means let's say if someone has an addiction and they go into recovery, if it's an intensive recovery, even out of that, you want to see some evidence that it's sustaining in the change that happened in that recovery. I would say for an affair that can be a little bit more flex. I mean, we won't meet with a couple where there's an ongoing affair, but let's say, you know, a month ago or 6 weeks ago, they decided to stop that. they're committed to wanting to see the marriage work. We'll engage them in that. Sometimes, again, we with any couple will assess where they're at before we decide together if that's a journey they need to take as the intensive. So, we do sort of some pre-work to understand, you know, because we want that to be a successful journey for the couple to engage in the intensive. Sure. What does an assessment look like whenever someone makes that first contact with you? Yeah. So typically what we do is once someone expresses interest we will schedule an initial session. And so that is just time to for each spouse to understand for us to understand like how is how is the how are these issues affecting both of you because we don't want one spouse to speak for the other because obviously the way something is impacting us looks different for each person and so then from there we'll discern and say yeah I think the next step if you want to take that step is the intensive here's some specifics about the intensive and what will that look like and how do you prepare for the time? Um, so yeah, that's just something that we want to do to make sure we that couple can experience the best that they can and be prepared and ready for that. Obviously, each spouse comes in with different ideas of what's going on and one's very motivated to want to change and the other one is straddling the fence. Yeah. Getting drugged along almost. Well, and that's or I've often come across couples or one of the spouses that says, "I'm not interested in the marriage, you know, doing married life if it if it's going to continue to look this way." But I'm very motivated to work on the marriage if it can look different. Yeah. So, would you say that um more women reach out to you guys direct or more men? I would say typically women tend to reach out. I I think just by the nature of more um maybe the wiring of women that they have more of that relational pulse on the on that and they want to see I think reconnectedness and you know unity in some of these challenges. So they tend to initiate most often the process of getting help. Yeah, I can I can see that it's it tends to lean that way even in uh the recovery world that um it's it's still a higher percentage of males that that that battle with it, but the I'm not saying the rise is there, but there are females, too. So, I just didn't know. I remember going through it uh going through it with Kristen, my wife. Um, my favorite part and and I and I push couples to do this today that that I get the opportunity to work with is the uh writing the love letter, you know, and expressing the the the moment you knew you were in love, your wedding day, and then like your happiest moment being after being married and you you I think we were encouraged to pull like family dynamic out, things like that. And then we got to read it to each other. Mhm. That was like nobody writes love letters anymore, you know, and so that was really awesome. We do you still is that still part of the process in the beginning? It is. And so that's one of the things that we see helps a couple sort of reconnect in the beginning. And sometimes those letters are are hard and and difficult, but it's a reminder of where we started relationally, which tends to be pretty positive and a reminder that that still exists. that's just getting overwhelmed by the negative, right? Is there um have you ever had a couple that didn't that didn't make it past the letter? No, that's good. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's a really good step and it just kind of tears the wall down some. And we're pretty strategic in the questions we ask. So, it's not like a freeforall, right? Tell me letter. So, tell me uh remind me again what was asked to be in the letter because I feel like I may have gotten some of it right but not all of it. So questions in the letter that we ask are just what was your family dynamics? How did your parents model marriage? Okay. And so whether we realize it or not, the most powerful indicator of how you're going to enter into adulthood relationally is the family system you grew up in for good or bad generational because we just instinctively absorb that about how to engage in conflict. You know, even the words we associate with our parents' marriage, you know, whether there was divorce or single parent or whatever that looked like, you know, marriage is stable, marriage is unstable, marriage is chaos, all of that is being assigned. And a lot of times it's in the subconscious. So if again things were chaotic. Yeah. Well, then we don't of course we don't desire that entering into our own marriage. Like it's not like, hey, that sounds fun. Let's have a chaotic life. No, I mean I get it. I I think about my parents as as you say that because you know um they met when they were really young and you know difficult times and you know it's all fun in the dating process until you start paying bills together that's like when the real life starts to happen but um but knowing my my dad he probably would be the guy that'd be like yeah I'm not going to do this. Yeah. So, um, how do you walk? Let's talk about the guy in the in that in that setting. How how do you get us to open up? Yeah, I I think again the letters are very helpful because you do that ahead of time and and being able to put some thought into how you want to write the letter. You know, there's no right or wrong way to write it. Some write a more of a story. Others are very factual in the way that they answer it and almost do bullet points. So, I've had all of the above. But I think that helps just open up and, you know, you can reflect a bit more. You can start to connect dots because you're going from the beginning of your relationship to where it is now. And then when what you hope it will look like moving forward. Yeah. So, it's uh you know, but it has to it takes um I would say and I this is my opinion. um it takes the guy wanting to do that because we're the driving force in the relationship or in the marriage that can be like a a big decision maker, you know. So, I think it's important that we we get get the guys on board, you know. Well, and I and I think um and I will say this is human nature in general, but probably leans a bit more to us guys is that we tend to reach out when we're in crisis. Oh, yeah. I've asked for help when I was in jail. Like, what can you do? Help me. Help me. And and I don't know what wall we have to hit for whatever motivates us to change, but I I just think it's sort of the crisis or I have found when say the wife starts using crisis language, by the time us guys sometimes figure out the ship is sinking, the wife's like, "It's been sinking for a while. You're just now figuring it out." And why did I have to start using extreme language for you to finally pay attention? Yeah. I' I've had people on the podcast that the wife just yesterday there was there was a lady here and she was so cool, calm, and collected, but I think that's what intimidated the husband the most is that if she wasn't that way Yeah. I knew that um it was about to hit the fan. Yeah. So, and that's, you know, and again that we don't Let me just say this. What brings us into marriage cannot sustain us in it. Okay. Right. because eventually we're running on the fumes of dating and engagement and it was all fun and exciting typically and maybe you saw a few red flags but you ignored it because you're in heavy like or in love and you don't want to rock the boat and yeah and so and so that's what I'm saying we just then we enter in and all of a sudden whether it's the first year of marriage or whatever we start to get relationally lost and like I don't know where we're going relationally and what worked back here is not working anymore. or Yeah, it's it's tough for people um when when people get to the point where they need um mediation or marriage intensives. Mhm. And you know, let's say the 3A's, you know, we we don't bring that in or you don't, you know, don't move forward until it's time. Is there a moment in the intensive or in the mediation, you know, whatever words we want to use that you would say we have to stop um and you need to do something different. Does that make sense? Like like stop the mediation or intensive and say, you know what, we can't move forward because this is just going to be too much to not to get them to separate or divorce, but say you need a you need a counselor or you need more on a next level. Yeah. And I mean it's very rare. um I mean that you know people will lie to get into the intensive because they want the help. So I I get it and then sometimes things come out that they didn't share in the assessment time. And so if we do have to deal with that or we recognize like, okay, this is going to dominate too much or you know, one of our um marriage coaches and mediators, they were doing an intensive and you know, she had to confront one of the spouses because there was evidence of uh like a meth addiction. Mhm. And so lovingly confronted that and brought it to light and they stopped it and she took him to a treatment center that afternoon. Really? Yeah. That's interesting. And and so that's very rare because again it doesn't mean there can't be residue from those things that are affecting the marriage. It just we don't want to be front and center because then it really dominates and it's about the issue versus the marriage. Can you give us um the listeners um that are that are going to be hearing this? What are some of the main reasons that drive people to need uh a marriage intensive? Yeah. So, I would say typically we meet with couples where they're hitting speed bumps or they're in crisis. And so, you know, a speed bump could be there's just one or two issues like our communication is really struggling. And I would say communication is over 90%. Okay. we just at this point when we get stuck we don't know how to communicate through that issue to get to the other side of it others I mean there are things I mean could be parenting issues finances intimacy is typically a significant one you know whether it's lack of sexual intimacy or just intimacy can be emotional and connecting and you know and so there's a breakdown and of course you know all of that works together you talk about one issue and it feeds into another right and so those are Just I'd say general ones, but communication is a big one. We just It seems so easy, but man, it's hard. Um I imagine it's different at different stages of life and marriage. Do you see where people come at like one year, you know, I've always heard like the first year is the hardest or the third or the seventh, you know, these odd numbers, but is does it do you feel like it really there's no s certain year that people fall into that? Yeah, I I would say maybe I would see it more as seasons than years. like if we're in the season of parenting. So I say issues always expose themselves. They typically aren't created. They were just waiting for a catalyst to bring it to light. So it's like the foundation wasn't stable. It just took having kids Yeah. to expose the cracks in the foundation. And so, you know, so it's more of those seasons of, you know, parenting and all of a sudden whether we haven't invested or now we're so focused on the kids, the marriage starts to suffer. Yeah. Um, you know, or just there's the stacking like at some point things aren't sustainable. You just don't know the straw that breaks the camel's back. And so it could be 5 years in, 10 years in. I mean, a lot of times I think empty nesting is a big one because all of a sudden the focus was on the family and now we're staring at each other and we don't know who we are. Yeah. As a couple. That's that was kind of one of the the um seasons I was thinking about is becoming an empty neester, you know, or blended family and you're trying to parent somebody else's child or, you know, the different different ways that um those things would would kind of come to the top. I often u think about with my wife, you know, she's she's a stepmom um to my two sons and she's done a phenomenal job of trying to well not trying, she has she's found the great balance and um in that role. Uh and that's a tough role. Um but she's done it with grace and with just kindness. Uh, but I can see that if if she wasn't bought in as a supporting spouse and as um just wanting to be a mother figure that that would be difficult. Same for for a guy that's playing the role as a stepdad and trying to figure it out. And and I would say blended families are ones that we often see because that's a unique relational dynamic like you said of okay, how do we navigate coming in where I'm not the direct parent of this kid or the kids and how do we navigate through that? Yeah. Yeah. Do people get um do they get intimidated when you tell them, hey, we're going to do this marriage intensive and it's going to last for eight hours? No. Uh I think um because we really try to explain what that looks like that that's getting eight to 10 sessions like counseling sessions in one setting. So what I love about that is you can lay your issues on the table and then turn around and work through them all in the same setting. Yeah. And and we don't compete with counseling. We refer an individual or you know to counseling when that makes sense. I just find that often the narrative has been in working with couples that they've done counseling and you just often run out of time because 50 minutes in, sorry, we're done. And so now the next time you meet, you're putting out fires from the two weeks, let's say you didn't meet and so it's almost like you're pulling them back to neutral. Yeah. So what I love about the intensive is you can gain a lot of forward momentum because you just have the time. Yeah. um to but we want to be very strategic to say the familiar way that you've tried to address your issue isn't working. We need to create a new normal. And here I um you guys are are training people to become marriage intensive coaches or mediators. I want to make sure I get the verbiage right. But if uh talk to me about what that looks like if someone wants to come and go through that training uh to understand how they can become a a coach or mediator. And so I I think there has to be some level of seeing the evidence of um a healthy marriage and or seeing that God did a transformative work in their relationship and now there's a heart and passion to come alongside others cuz it's often whatever you know God does in us, he wants to go through us to help other people. It just doesn't need to stay with us. And so, you know, that there's a heartbeat or a passion, you know, whether you're in a faith-based organization, a church, or that's just a heart for it, but you also want to do a side business to where, you know, so people do all of the above in that area. And there is, you know, prerequisite work that we want to model. This is what a couple goes through when they're actually doing an intensive. And we want you to walk through that process as well to understand what it looks like cuz not everyone that comes to us has done an intensive and and so there's that newness for those that are coming to be certified to understand what is an intensive like so they can see that but then also maybe start to see themselves in the role of being a mediator and working with couples. I think people get excited when you say that you can use it as a business, per se, cuz um uh it's it's not that it's expensive, but I remember um in the training when I went through it, a divorce is a lot more expensive than paying to go through mediation. Yeah. And and um people just need to hear that. I mean, it it's this doesn't have to be the final decision when you when you talk about divorce because you guys mediate to stay together. And a lot of times when people hear that word, they think about, oh, well, I need to have mediator to help us work through a divorce. But this is totally opposite. You're helping to rebuild or restructure or or give new thoughts to the marriage. Yeah. And so, typically when you think of a like you said, a mediator is leaning toward divorce and it's to create a civil separation so we're not at each other. So that's really about separation where we're more about restoration and healing the marriage because the divorce mediator and the marriage mediator were seeing the same couple for the same issues. Y So to me, why would you rather not work on your relationship or help couples in their relationship and invest in that because you know the costs are a lot greater for divorce. And I'm and I live in reality. I get it that people divorce for different reasons or whatever their thinking says needs to happen. And just on a side note, I say the definition of divorce emotionally and mentally is a reprieve from my misery and desperation. Wow, that's good. And so what's the fastest way to pull the rip cord to get out of my misery and desperation? And that doesn't mean effort wasn't made, trying wasn't made. It's just if it's done unto self. Remember, what could be a win for you could be a loss for the marriage every time because my way is to do it this way. Well, the other couple is like, "Well, my way is to do it this way." Well, typically when you get stuck in your own way of trying to resolve it, it pulls you further apart. It doesn't bring you closer together, right? So, there has to be some foundational, you know, anchoring that both couples can gravitate toward because that's when they'll see success. And I've heard numbers from from your team before of like a success rate. Was it 90 something% of couples? Over 90% of couples who go through the intensive. It was very hopeful and encouraging walking out of that time. Okay. And so, you know, obviously they get to work the plan that we helped create and they worked through and taking that back home, but now they believe they have a tangible way to navigate through different challenges or situations in their marriage. Yeah, that's awesome. Now, this this week here at the uh EXO headquarters, uh you're teaching some folks that have signed up to go through this training. Yes. If someone hears this and they decide that they want to do that, what does their training look like when they get here? Brandon. Yeah. So, again, there's the prerequisite work that we want you to be prepared and ready to understand what we're going to go through in the training. And then the training starts on a Wednesday evening and goes through Friday afternoon. and really were equipping you um and to become certified at the end of the training to say you can now move forward with this in helping other couple couples. And so we're really just walking them through understanding um what the training is about and then this is how you would teach and train a couple as a marriage mediator. What about that prerequisite timeline? Is that like a three weeks? Because again it you know we would like maybe more of a couple of months because we we want to make sure you immerse yourself in it as much as possible and it can be a couple or it can be an individual that goes through. We even even had licensed therapists who they just want an additional tool in their tool belt that have come through our certification and training. And then after you get this training you're added to um like an email list for ongoing coaching. Is there a need to do like a reertification? Not like a CEU, but kind of like a just making sure you're up to date with new information that you guys may add to the content. Mhm. So, this is a newer profession for a lack of a better word. And so, we want to help continue to equip people because some people can catch on super quick. It makes sense. others their journey could be by the time they're ready to do this it's six months later or a year later just because they need to build the confidence of working with couples you know do some trials with I mean that in a good way like hey so and so you have a pretty decent marriage but can I take you through a one day intensive because I need to practice it'll benefit you as well I remember being so nervous doing that I was like I can't do this but it we have a training manual and a workbook book that you can use as your guide. So, it's not like we just throw you out there and say, "I hope you remember all this and good luck." And no, it I didn't feel that way. I felt very well equipped. But I did feel it. It can be intimidating. Especially when I was like, "Uh, hey friends, you know, man and wife, come tell me your issue, you know." So, you have to figure out a way to word that and and be open to receive that. And then and we do I want to say we do have a network that um those certified mediators can become a part of which gives ongoing training support um resourcing them you know community you know of like-minded people and how can they interact with each other to hey how are you doing this in your you know practice but each is a little bit different because of the community you live in right and and people you know they think um you know once they get this, you know, it it's not like you're you're you're part of the EXO family, but you know, you won't be like mentioned on the EXO website. I know that I was like, "Oh, you need my picture, right? Cuz I'm going to be on this website with exos." And it's not that, but you are in that network where you get the emails or the calls that are offered and things like that. So, that's and there is a level of like CEU training or even, you know, we're developing master level courses where let's say you also have a heart for premarital couples. Well, we use a lot of the same resources and teachings that we do for in the intensive that we do for the for the premaritals because I've had so many couples come through that said, "Man, if we' have learned this like years ago, this would have saved us so much hurt and pain." I didn't know that you did the premarital. What What does that part look like? So, it's a it's a oneday course that's um eight hours. It is if you're in Texas, it's um we are connected with together in Texas, which means that's a resource that someone can go through and they get $60 off of their marriage license if because we give a certificate that says you went through that. That's really so yeah, it's a so those are some something where you come here in person to our exo center and it's a day of just walking through Yeah. the premarital. It can be for those who are getting remarried. It can be for those who have never been married before because it's the same process and principles of you know awareness and understanding of just relational dynamics and then what are certain topics that are seem to be prevalent like okay in-laws you know that can be a dynamic to what I mean that can even be a dynamic in marriage as an issue right it can be um I have some really good in-laws Danny and Terry I love you so much that's right I have some really good in-laws Then I know folks that, you know, I've heard, you know, it's colder than a mother-in-law's love outside. And I'm like, why you say that? But I mean, it's because they don't have that great of relationship. Yeah. Um, one thing you kind of you touched on is that when people want to go through the training, they need to come here and be in the building. This this isn't offered as a a streaming. Yeah. At this point, it's not virtual or streaming. It's a in person. There's just too many dynamics of what we walk through that it just works best in person and you just need to see Yeah. them be present, not just checking a box and Yes. kind of being in the in the in the house. Yeah. Now, Brandon, you've been married for how long? Tell me a little bit about your marriage and your family. So, I have an amazing wife, Amy. She's the more mature one in our relationship if I'm really honest. So, um, we've been married 17 years. We got married later in life. Had never been married. So I was 37, she was 34. There like a couple unicorns running around. I tell you what, we're just No kids. Vibrant. Yeah. Wow. Um people there. And so then Toby, our oldest, came 10 months later cuz you know, I say we had to get her done and make it happen. So we weren't like walking with a cane trying to You start doing the math of when they're going to graduate and how old you're going to be. Yeah. So we have four kids. So they we had four six and under and so life is full. Sometimes I'm a grumpy parent just by the age they're being normal 13-year-old and yeah so it's it's it's a lot of fun and Amy you know we use the tools. That's what I was getting to how do you imply or use that at home? Yeah. Sometimes I get mad at myself cuz I'm like Brandon you teach this all the time and you're not doing what you teach sometimes. So I even have to remember cuz you can just take for granted. Yeah. You know, just the relationship and but we try to, you know, navigate through things like, okay, slow ourselves down and let's actually think about this and not just react through this issue. And so those are things that yeah, we've been through harder seasons and it's been hard. And it's not because we're illwilled and we're over there thinking, how can we make each other miserable right now? That's not our heart. But as we do life because you have different ideas about how to parent or you have different ideas about how to prioritize the relationship and you know and so if you're not communicating and talking you're doing you're assuming a lot right you're going to have some narative level of different seasons too like you know yes having that those four kids you know that close together that it I'm not saying that the seasons would be different harder easier but you know I've got one that's 18 16 and eight. Yeah. And it's and two boys and a girl and it's those boys are are different. And I remember um hearing this a long time ago, the the bigger the kid, the the bigger the problem or the harder the problem or something like that. But it's true like it's it's easier when they're smaller. But Kristen and I have ran into different ways where we had to use, you know, our mediation training or just knowing from being together so long like we need to handle this together. Um Yes. and and be on the same page as we parent this. Um, yeah. And that's hard because I think fundamentally Amy and I desire the same thing, right? I mean, we want a marriage that's we are connected, you know, and I'm not talking about logistically connected. I'm talking about relationally connected, right? And so, I mean, that's all our heart's desires. We want kids that grow up to, you know, impact their community and be smart and wise, but then how we get there is where we start to diverge. Y So, fundamentally, we desire the same thing, but then she's over there thinking, let's go this way to make that happen, and I'm over here like, well, we need to go this way. Yeah. And I'm tend to be more in the moment, like, we'll address it when we need to address it. Where Amy is more intentional to think through things. I'm the same way. Yeah. Sometimes you'll want to talk about it. It's like 11 o'clock at night, babe. I'm Yeah. Let's unplug. Well, just on a side note, I say no good conversation happens after 10:00 at night. I'm going to write that down and use it. That's my It's just my new out. Yeah. I don't care if you're a night owl. Just trying to work through relational things. It's just harder later at night. My brain isn't going to work that time either. Yeah. Well, I tell Amy, I'm like, "If you want the best of me, we need to do it before 10:00 cuz once we hit 10:00 or later, I start to short circuit." Yeah. I get it. Yeah. Mentally. And Yeah. Well, as we kind of um end today and and you talk, you have an opportunity um to share um something that you would want listeners that are listen because the people that are going to listen to this, it's going to be um people that are walking in recovery together of different kinds of recovery. Uh moms and dads and um trying to figure out maybe how to help their loved one. Mhm. Um, and so these different dynamics, you know, we you and I have talked about it before, like I I want to be a resource to help fill the gap with, you know, those three A's and the addiction is where I'd like I'd like to help. I don't have any experience with adultery or abuse, but I do with the addiction. Yeah. Um but if if you were speaking to um a group of listeners and you wanted them to know um the importance of why they should consider mediation or just a word of encouragement. What would that be from from your space or your area? Yeah. I I would I want to normalize things that all of us are trying to figure out how to do married life well. No one is immune to. I don't care what your background is, you know, if you're a counselor or what I do. It's just the reality that we have es and flows in our relationships. Some create significant breakdown and others, you know, um we can navigate through. They're minor issues, but man, it's been the slow slide of not being resolved, not being resolved, and eventually 20 years later, it's now a big deal. Yeah. And so, whatever season you're in, that's that's okay. Um because in that journey I just think it's important to recognize I can't figure this out on my own or we can't figure this out on our own because if we could we wouldn't be where we're at. Yeah. And so it's just I think it all starts with some level of humility and surrender to say I I can't do this. And it's almost like step one in a 12step program. It it can be. Yeah. It's just that idea of like someone neutral because when we when we're in an issue, it can become so personal, we can't see it objectively anymore. Like the hand's so close in front of our face, I can't see anything but my hand. So, you bring just practicality and simplicity back to it. And so, how do we just sit there and and say you're okay? You know, I I want to normalize this. And I'm not saying normal is healthy. It's just you're normal. And so, and so whether if that's addiction or let's say, you know, parents, how are we unified in working with this loved one so that we don't unintentionally create more chaos? Yeah. Cuz now we're fighting each other based upon what we think needs to happen. And that's not helping anything. Yeah. And so I would just say, what does it look like to be unified and together? And really, I'm more about looking through the front windshield, not the rearview mirror of what should have happened. Yeah. I love that. So, we can't do it different, but I mean, we we can't change the past, but we can do it different moving forward. Yeah, that's good. The way you think, you got to look through the windshield, not the not the rearview mirror. Yeah. And so, that's where we tend to get stuck, right, in all our should, would a could ofs, whether we're beating ourselves up or we're beating each other up. Yeah. And so, so that that's just I think the importance of just recognize that all of us need that help. Um, and it's just, and that could be a mentor couple, that could be intensive, you know, walking through and someone to guide you, cuz there's a difference between talking about your issue and working through it. And a lot of times we're talking about it, but we're not working through it. If they get to a point where they've done eight hours with you, but they feel like they need more. Do you offer a little bit more time just to kind of We do have a two-day. You do? Okay. So, I would say a two, a one day is again if we're hitting a speed bump or two. two days if we're in pretty significant crisis or a lot of issues have stacked up and we just need time to work through those issues and just being patient and just taking your time. Yeah, I think that's great. And so, you know, day one we call teaching day because we want to set up the new structure in normal of how we're going to engage in those issues and then we're actually going to walk through those issues. And so if that issue is whatever the residue of an addiction and how does the marriage thrive after that happened, we're going to take them through that process and say here's your template now of how to navigate and work through that. Um before we close the the three A's, um and you may have said this, I just missed it or maybe we had the conversation over the phone. The addiction, abuse, and the adultery. Is there one that stands out above the other? Like in an order like this is issue number one is the highest, you know, addiction, abuse, adultery, adultery, addiction, abuse. Is there Yeah. an order that you see people bring to the table that one kind of outweighs the other? Yeah. And I would I'd really say who I've engaged with most often are those where there's been an affair. Okay. Whether that's an emotional affair, physical, or sexual. And so I would say actually a fourth to a third of those that I've worked with that typically tends to be a past issue. Okay. That still were struggling to navigate and get through that and rebuild trust. Okay. I'd say after that um it's different. I don't really um I'm not thinking like abuse elevates itself over addiction. Yeah. Um, you know, abuse, we're really talking about physical abuse, like that's, you know, because emotional, mental abuse, like that can be very sometimes nuanced, you know, about how to engage in that. And not to diminish how it's impacting anyone, but really where we say we can't work with you is if there's been physical or more sexual abuse or something of that nature. Yeah. So, well, man, I I can't thank you enough just for taking time. I made a joke about coming downstairs, but I know you're a very busy guy with with everything you're doing. I'm I'm looking forward to to being here and seeing some of the faces that come through the doors this week and um and going through the training, but if I can ever serve you with with my network or with what I'm doing with Recovery Val, I'd be honored to. So, just uh just let me know. But well, we're we're continuing to what just see how that can connect better moving forward. And I think both of us have the heart to yeah the heart is just help couples and yeah just get get to what is a thriving relationship and that's afforded all of us just to let you know it doesn't matter what the background is sometimes it's harder and it takes more effort and intentionality to get there but that I believe that's afforded all of us if we choose to do the intentional work. That's absolutely right. So man, thank you so much Brandon. I appreciate you coming man. Yeah, thank you Eric. Enjoyed it.