Generation Breakers: The Halverson's on Forgiveness, Family, and Faith | Recovery Vow

In this powerful episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with James and Michelle Halverson to discuss what it means to become true “generational breakers”—transforming cycles of trauma, addiction, and broken relationships through recovery and faith.

James shares his journey to real sobriety at 44 after decades of struggle, opening up about childhood abuse, manipulation, and the freedom that came through forgiving his mother. Michelle reflects on her own past with abuse and the challenge of supporting a son battling addiction while learning to balance love with accountability.

Together, they reveal how honesty, humility, and transparency—like sharing phone access and confronting fear—helped them rebuild trust and connection. This heartfelt conversation reminds us that healing isn’t just about overcoming addiction—it’s about breaking chains, restoring families, and creating a legacy of hope and service through their full-time Gym Ministry.

On This Episode:
• Why the concept of being a "generational breaker" resonated with couples.
• James’ transformative act of forgiving his mother, which facilitated his own healing.
• The connection between childhood sexual abuse and adult conflict mechanisms (the "chump" complex).
• The power of vulnerability and communication in moving past "scorched earth" arguments.
• Michelle’s perspective on supporting a loved one through addiction and avoiding enablement.
• The role of radical transparency (like shared phone access) in building trust in recovery.

Connect with James and Michelle Halverson:
Instagram:   / thehalversons  
Podcast:    / @thehalversonspodcast  
(Note: James' book is Awakened and Michelle's upcoming book is The Boss Breakthrough)


Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  Okay, on today's episode of the Recovery Bout podcast, I'm going to sit with Michelle and James Halverson. Now, these are some friends of mine from here in Dallas, but uh when they read through Marriage After Addiction, they said that the chapter about being a generational breaker really stood out to them. So, on today's episode, that's what we dig into. James uh tells his version of being a generational breaker and why that's important as a person in recovery and Michelle as a just a supportive spouse, but she also had to be a generational breaker. So sit back and enjoy this episode. You can stream this episode on any of your favorite platforms. You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel and at the same time subscribe and watch of all of our other previous episodes. If you're not already following us on Facebook or Instagram, you can do so. And if you want to reach out to me direct, you can email me at recoveryvgmail.com. Sit back, enjoy this episode. [Music] So, I'm so glad that you guys are here, but um I want to I want to start the conversation by just digging into the book Marriage After Addiction. I wrote this book as a gift to the world, but uh specifically for couples like you. Um, I want to open it up to one of the chapters that we were just talking about was uh breaking the chains of family legacies, which pretty much means um I want to be a generational breaker, not a generational blamer. And as couples go through that, you know, as the supporting spouse, um, they would answer, you know, the question at the end of the chapter from their point of view. And then as a person in recovery, we would answer that question, uh, from our point of view. And and for a dude, it's it's important that we become the generational breaker, not the generational blamer. We we can't say that um you know, my mom and dad was this way and it makes me that's why I was that way. It's it's choice. It still is choice to an extent, but there's there's the DNA that we just can't ignore. Um and and I feel like um all the couples that read this, they'll just practically figure out this is simple, you know. Um you have to be the difference. That's why a part of recovery is is when we're taught to be selfish. That's what we're that's the healthy part of the selfishness is that we're taught that it's okay. Um that doesn't mean you don't love your family and you don't respect how you were raised. You just need to be different and it's time to it's okay to change. It doesn't mean you're writing anybody off. But I want to read this question because even though you're not dealing with an addiction of any kind, you you people can answer this question because we just want to grow, right? So, I want I want you to answer this as a supporting spouse and then James, you answer this as the the person in recovery and then and then I want you guys to use it as a way to lead into your story. Okay? Sound good? Yeah. All right. So, what positive legacies or strengths can I honor even when the dysfunction is in my family story? So, to break that down, what can you learn from the legacies or strengths that you can honor even when you've had dysfunction, let's say from mom or dad? So in other words, from their strengths and what they did and even dysfunction or what they didn't do. Um well, you know, every family has dysfunction, mine included. So um and my parents were actually evangelists. Um but they didn't ch that didn't happen till later in my life. I was when I say later, I was 10 when their life radically changed. And so all of those um the things that they had been a part of growing up, the abuse, they had both gone through abuse. Um they had both my mother grew up with um her father was an alcoholic. Very very abusive. And so they had a lot of um dysfunction. Where did you grow up at? I grew up in Las Vegas. Okay. Yeah. But I I was born in Dallas. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so you're back home. Yeah. And I mean, and we spent a lot of time here cuz my grandmother lived here and we were always in Texas. But um but yeah, I grew up in Las Vegas. So, but yeah, I I would say that um there was so many beautiful things about my parents and um my personality tends to look at those things instead of at the negative. That's just who I am. And there's five kids and it's so interesting to me how we all view how we were raised very differently. But I I see the value. They were my mother as dysfunctional as she grew up. And I think because she grew up so dysfunctional, um her whole thing was family is everything. I mean, family is everything. And when we always had Sunday meal together, we were, you know, Sunday meal was important. But also, every night she cooked and around that table were strangers. M I mean they would bring home people off the streets and they would and they really taught me what it meant to be other oriented and I think that was one of the greatest takeaways for me in life was not to be selfish but to give our life away. Yeah. Um as dysfunctional as it could be at times. You found the positive in it. I found that they gave us such a wealth, such a treasure in so many of the other things and a lot of laughter, you know, and a lot of lot of uh great times, but also a lot of difficult ones, especially with me. I'm the oldest and I went through abuse with my dad, physical abuse um until he got saved and then things changed and you know, did you say he was um an alcoholic or that was your grandparent? Oh, no. My grandfather was um but uh but no, my dad was not an alcoholic. He was just a raging um person. He was very had a lot of anger from his own growing up, I guess. Um my dad has never really talked, you know, he's not a talker, so I don't really know exactly where that came from. I do know when he changed I was 10 and he began to ask my forgiveness and really even for probably 20 years would there were moments he would still like things would happen in my life and he would blame himself. Yeah. And um especially I went through a divorce at 30 I think I was 37 and he said just a couple years ago you know two years ago just a year ago actually but at 37 before I get to my life my age but I went through that divorce and my dad was he felt responsible and I'm like you're not responsible for that you know I you know and I even owned a lot of the stuff that I wanted to blame him for as a young girl, you know, there was a lot of things that because of the abuse and because there was no relationship, you know, I love my dad, but I I would say I still don't really know my dad and he's 86. Mhm. Um I think people that he he was he worked in the with the homeless ministry for many years. He was an evangelist, then he went into homeless ministry, and I think some of those people knew him more than I did, you know. That tends to be the case sometimes. And that I think that's where um some of us as men probably want it's hard to kind of you know expose yourself or let your heart be on your sleeve if you will but we have to um to kind of just show our vulnerability because there's leadership and strength in that too. And Eric I will say just one last thing on that I would say my mom had to carry our family a lot and the spiritual leadership and now he was there like he always prayed for us. He was always speaking the word of God when he would minister and he would there was times where he showed up in that. But really she carried us. And so I think when you see that as a woman you feel like respon you feel that responsibility. And then of course raising kids as a single mom for a lot of years. Same thing, you know. So that's been something different for James and I that we've had to work through for sure. How about you, Mr. James? How you doing this morning? I'm doing good. How you doing, man? I'm going to throw you right into the the fire. When I when I read that question out, um, did it did it make you think about anything that you've learned or were taught and how important maybe your dad was to you? Well, it did. And, um, it got, you know, it, you know, it seems like kind of a simple question, you know, but I tend to complicate things sometimes, you know, so I wanted to kind of go deeper in that, you know, and I was still kind of stuck on your first question. Um, but they kind of tie together and here for me. Okay. And uh you know my mom was born from her own um dysfunctional childhood. Um a lot of trauma, a lot of abuse, a lot of instability, a lot of chaos, you know. Um she had my sister at a young age. She was 16. She had me at 19 from different dads. Um, and then, uh, you know, I never met my biological father. He got put in prison when I was a baby and spent his pretty much his whole my whole life there until 17, you know, but I didn't get a chance to meet him cuz he uh he didn't live long after he got out of prison, you know. Um, but my mom carried a lot of shame and guilt with her um that I was aware of. if not on a conscious level, you know, at a younger age. Um, but certainly as I as I dove deeper and deeper into my addiction, um, and you know how we can get, you know, we become highlevel manipulators. Oh, yeah. You know, I could I could sell ice to an Eskimo. Yes. You know, and uh and always being ever aware of that mechanism in my mom, I was able to use that. you know, um, and that's our abuse to them. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I feel like that's an abuse to them. Absolutely. Because we want to play the card of, well, I want you to support me, but I also need you to enable me. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Yeah. She'll ask me for help, and then I'll be, you know, and this is what addicts do. We'll say, sure, you can help me, and I'm going to tell you how you can help me. you know. Um, uh, so fast forward, I I I finally got sober legitimately for the first time in 2010. I was 44 years old. Decades of rehabs, detoxes, meetings, in and out, in and out. You know, not a unique story, you know, we we hear it all the time. And uh I finally got beaten down enough to where I started following some direction, got a sponsor, um you know, started, you know, working through recovery. And it's interesting, one of he about 3 months into him and I's relationship, he said, "It's time for you to let mom off the hook." I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "You know exactly what I'm talking about." And he was right. And that mom and I had had countless conversations about this over the years, how she would verbally acknowledge, you know, I, you know, I'm I'm sorry for what happened, what happened to you, what our life was like. Um, I'm doing my best to, you know, make sure that moving forward. you know, other words, she would vocalize and verbalize her and I back and forth that, you know, she wasn't responsible for me and my decision. She wasn't responsible for how I was moving forward with my life. And she had let go of the shame and guilt, but I knew that wasn't true. Yeah. And so did she. And uh I can it's hard for me to even talk about this without getting emotional. Hey, man, if you I'd been about 3 months I'd been about 3 months sober. Um, and I said, "Mom, I'd like to come over and talk to you." Now, she was still a little bit leery. Um, you know, because she had seen me, you know, I had, you know, pie in the sky how I was going to turn my life around and and and show brief glimpses of that only to burn it back down to the ground. And typically I pulled everybody around me along for that ride, you know, and she had been through the spin cycle with me so many times. Um, she but she said, "Yeah, son. Come on over." So, um, you know, I came over my my my dad, I say my dad, he's my stepdad, but he's the only dad I've ever really known. He was at work and it was just her and I in the house. And I'm I I'll never forget this. I I She was upstairs vacuuming. So I came up the stairs and went into her room and I said, "Mom, I need to sit down on the bed here." And she kind of looking at me like, "Okay, what's what's coming?" You know, and uh and this was some coaching from my, you know, you asked about mentors earlier, my sponsor, you know, and uh I sat down and I was quiet for a minute. I said, "Mom, I want you to know two things. That's all I want you to know from this conversation. Um I love you." And I know that's sometimes been hard to believe. I said, "And two, I forgive you completely." And she has a lot like me in her defense. She said, "Oh yeah, no, honey. I know. I know you do." And I said, "No, no, mom. I want you to look at me." I said, "I forgive you." What were you um releasing her from? cuz I mean when we sat down and started talking you said that chapter in the book really stood out to you about being um breaking the chains of general generational legacies. So did was that something that you feel like your mom um you were trying to break something that that you dealt with with her in the past? What were you forgiving her for? Um well I I I was forgiving her for everything. I was letting her off the hook and it was just as much for me, which is something my sponsor recognized that I couldn't. I was still blaming mommy. You know, I got you now. You know, at 44 years old, I was still blaming mommy and I was letting mommy's shame and guilt and her blaming herself work to my advantage. I was still using that as leverage and manipulation at 44 years old. Mhm. And uh and that was a powerful moment for us. She was able to slow down and really hear and see what I was saying. And I believe from that moment forth, she began to really forgive herself, which she thought she had done and maybe had partially done. Um but isn't it interesting our relationship transformed from that moment? Yeah. share some of the things, honey, that and just know because I know his story really well, of course. Um, just things that your mom went through and that affected you growing up that you were feeling that she was responsible for. Well, like what are some of the generational things that obviously she grew up in trauma and then of course, you know, there was a lot of trauma when you were a kid. I went through a lot of trauma. Yeah. So, yeah. explain it where you can walk us put us and put us where we're standing right beside you in one of those trauma situations. There's so many um if you tell them telling it tell it like me and Michelle are standing there with you and we kind of watching it happen. My first introduction to alcohol I was 5 years old. Um my mom um you know again being a young mother of two children and terrified because uh she had no real resources to fall back on. She had married a um I had two crazy psychotic stepdads in between um my dad and who I call dad now the who adopted me when I was 12. Um, but my first introduction to alcohol was was I guess it was traumatic. I mean, I'll never forget it. Um, they were they had a house party. Um, and I went around emptying all the the the half or partially drinking cups of alcohol and got drunk and sick. And I remember my mom and one of her friends walking me back and forth in the we lived in Idaho at the time in the alley behind the house, you know, trying to walk me off at I was 5 years old. So when you were cleaning up the cups, you were drinking it, taking a sip. Yep. He was downing them. Just kidding. Shots five. Yeah. Uh stepdad number two was just as psychotic as the first one. Um and used to um beat my mother into a bloody mess all the time. This is when we lived first in Idaho and then moved to Las Vegas. And I was 8 n 10 years old during that time. It was uh you know we we ran from him from Idaho to California. He followed us there. Uh talked her back into, you know, taking him back, came back to Las Vegas, but nothing, it got worse, you know. So I used to have to kick the screen out of my bedroom window, run across the street to the neighbor's house and call the police. Um and and see that was back in the day where she had to press charges. Yeah. You know, they've changed those statutes now and she'd never press charges. What do you think kept her from doing it? Just a security? You know, hard to say. I think uh yeah, I'm sure um you know and and once it had deescalated and I'm sure she blamed my mom was a firecracker, man. You know, I mean, she certainly had her part to play in the conflict. I don't think there's ever any excuse for what he did to her. Mhm. But I think she would take on some she would take on some of that, you know, in that moment. Cuz I remember the police saying, cuz a lot of times it was the same police that came back like, "Are you going to wait till he kills you or are you going to wait till he hurts one of the kids worse than he already had? What's it going to take?" You know, can I speak to that real quickly? Don't let it be a interview. Let it be a conversation. Yeah. And um Oh, I always want him to I love when he shares. But um just being a woman and of course and um being a single mother and having being I was also in a physically abusive relationship and it's funny when you get in those because you never I never saw myself being in that. I mean especially I was had already gone through a lot and had already developed enough maturity in my life that I thought how would I even be in this place but and it was a different situation cuz she was much younger and I I married somebody that I thought was a Christian you know she was still not in that place yet so but it doesn't matter because when you're in the situation um it's hard because you're like okay if I send him to jail then when he gets out Is he going to do something crazy? Is he going to try to, you know, do something even worse? I mean, there's just so many things that go and then, you know, then you're thinking about your children and then how is he going to work? I mean, there's just so many different until you're in it. I never thought I never understood how woman women couldn't just leave. Mhm. But there's so many dynamics to it. Now, I did after a year, but um even a year was long. Yeah. cuz you got to make you're making a decision not for just you but for you got you're carrying the burden for everyone I guess and we had we're tied in together. We had a house together. We had all these things and and and then who's going to take care of us? Who's going to you know I'm going to lose that income? I mean so I'm sure she was thinking how am I going to take care of my kids? You know what am I going to do if he's gone and then what I can barely survive like what am I going to you know and you don't when you're a lot of fear. I'm sure there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear behind those decisions. There's a sickness to it, too, because you're like, well, you I really I mean, and not in my situation, but I'm sure she was like cuz she fall she did get back together with them, so she really loved him. So, she's like, well, and they're the worst manipulators, abusers, you know, they're really good at manipulating. So, I mean, they can get you to believe they their biggest thing is this won't ever happen again. This won't ever happen. And you just want to keep believing that, keep believing it until finally you go, "This will happen again. This is not going to stop. I'm out." But and again, I was a little I was older in a different place with a lot more support to be able to walk out of that situation than she had. So, do you feel like when you guys read through that part of the book, um, it it drummed up this kind of conversation to where it made you open up to her even more, maybe things that she didn't know or vice versa, where you could say the things that, um, you dealt with from knowing about your grandfather and and like what you just said, knowing that I was just scared to leave, but I did eventually leave. I think yeah I think I mean and James can speak to it too but I here where where we were at when we read that chapter we've all one thing about him and I is we're very expressive which is you said men have a little bit of hard time he has shared so much with me um and I've shared so much with him we really I don't think there's a person in this world that knows as much about me as he does um and that was pretty early on in our relationship because we're just we really we really loved each other and connected pretty quickly and just had that that that instant like, you know, I trust you kind of feeling and um and that trust has been even built on top of more of a foundation now. But I think for us, you know, can I see that? Yeah. So, because there was a a question again, I want to make sure I have it right that really really banged home for me. What? What? We actually were in an argument when we read that chapter. Oh, fantastic. Because um I would not advise that to the listeners. Be in a good spot. Yeah. Argument would be putting it mildly. I I was going scorched earth. Okay. Well, and what what I told and and and it's not what we were in a cycle. And I told James, I'm like, we're in a cycle. This you do this to me and then I respond in defense and it never is going to get better. We're we don't have an issue talking through issues. We have an issue working through conflict. And so what I did was is because we can talk through anything. If we're sitting together and we prayed together and we really are humble, we're good because we're both he's really good about letting down his once he gets past that, he will open up his heart and go and he gets to the core like he'll be like, "You really hurt my feelings when you did this." And that is very powerful. And it's hard to say that most guys cannot I've never met a guy honestly. Nobody. Not even my own. I mean, it's a pride thing. It is a pride thing. And when he does that, I immediately go, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." Like, "I didn't know that." And then he and then he goes, "Why did you feel that way?" And then I share that with him and he's like, "Wow." And that's what happened the other night. But what I was telling him is look, we are at an age where we come from a lot of stuff that I mean, not only our family, but just bad relationships. And so I so I pulled this out and I said, "Let's I had been reading your book anyway." And so I um and he had too, but but I remembered that chapter. So, I pulled and I'd already read the chapter, but I pulled it back up to him and I said, "I want to read through all of this and I want you to tell me what you had in your past and I'll tell you what I had in my past." And pretty much we all both had almost all of it in our past. Literally, again, not to interrupt, sorry, but literally a few things. I hadn't got to this part yet cuz I started reading your book, you know, you know, and I'll pick it up and you know, but I hadn't gotten to this part, but she said, "Well, let's first off, let's go through examining your family's origins, you know. Is this the couple's discussion? Coup's discussion question." Yeah, this is this is chapter 10, breaking the chain of family. And so, we started going through. First off, here's what it did. Um, it slowed me down. Okay? And I was actually a little bit surprised that I was willing to sit down with her on the couch and go. When she first suggested, I like I ain't doing my hand on them. Yeah. I'm like, honey. But it slowed it slowed me down. Okay. I said, "Okay, let's go through this." So, she read the introduction to the chapter, you know, and and I'm slowing down. Yeah. I mean, I mean, up until this moment, I was mocked, too, with my hair on fire, you know, getting ready to tear everything to pieces, you know. I'm not physically. You do that with your words? Yes. Yeah. Am I am I am I passive aggressive manipulating, you know, um attitude and Yeah. It it it gets pathetic. But what was cool was hearing where that came from. Yeah. It actually and I want him to share that after this but cuz what he'll do is he'll from the time we've been together I told him and it took us this long really to get to this place and but it's been a process of just keeping going through you keep going through that cycle and then I'm like going this is like this is not just a one time this is like a cycle now just so you know like it would only happen it's very rare because we have a great relationship so but when it did it's explosive so I'm the same way. I mean, my wife, go after the juggler. Yeah, we Yes. I mean, I'm talking like I go, you are like trying to kill me, but you're not physically doing it. Mhm. But we can cut you in half with our words, and I have no idea where these sentence, phrases, or words come from. It's like, yeah, I don't even know who that was. I mean, I've apologized to He becomes a different person. Mhm. She says, I can see it in your She said, "Your demeanor changes when your eyes change." his whole face. It's like his posture, everything is like I want to destroy you. And I'm like, this is not normal. Like something's got to change. And then what I do, just so you know, because I've been through a lot of abuse. I'm like, oh heck no. Yeah, you can say what you want. I was going to say something else, but I was trying to be good. So, I mean, but I'll be like, "No." And I just start fighting right back. And I don't even remember know what he's upset about. Honestly, I don't even have a clue. It like all the times that he was doing that, I'm like, "I don't even know what you're saying." And the crazy part is I get like that, okay? Because I am trying to get her and see and hear what it is I'm trying to show her and say. And she stopped seeing me and listening to me 10 minutes ago when I became that way. She can't hear what I'm saying and she can't see what I'm trying to show. Well, yeah. And that's what I was going to get to. I wanted you to talk about that deeper root. when he told me the other day I was so first off she started we went through all these uh and all of the above for me you know he was like 100 all of the above and don't even need to go into the gory details but it said what and this is the one that that that pivoted me in that moment what negative life scripts have I inherited or seen modeled in my family have ways of acting been embedded in me over decades. Okay. And it brought me back to the relationship patterns, sexual abuse. Okay. I was sexually abused as a kid. I mean, horribly. And uh and her and I talked about it and and what it did from an early age, cuz I was young, is it it it the effect it had on me is I sexualized everything. Mh. And I was driven my entire life from that point by by that lust. I was driven by lust and and and in various forms. And it wasn't until I was about 12, 13 when for whatever reason I started to realize that what they had done to me wasn't erotic and sensual. It was wrong and it was vile. And that's when I shared it with my mother. She didn't know until then. Mhm. you know, um, talk about a cudgel I was able to use to beat her with emotionally for from that point on. That was one of them, you know, um, cuz she absolutely knew that what I was telling her was true and obviously went on to further validate that. Um, and so it ingrained in me, I I I immediately, for lack of a better way to describe it, I felt like a total chump. Yeah. I can relate. I mean, those guys punked me out. You know, that wasn't that wasn't a cool thing. That wasn't a sexual thing. That wasn't a exciting erotic thing. They turned me into a chump. Yeah. And silenced you at the same time. You're not going to You're not going to share that with anybody. No. And so, I think in that moment, I developed an internal mechanism. Nobody's going to make me a chump again. Mhm. And so when I would see even an indication of some sort of manipulative or deceptive behavior from somebody, I immediately react to that with that ain't going to happen, you know? But it's like with a venge, like there's that's where it's coming from is it's not just the situation. It's like all this other stuff that's coming in. And a lot of time anger is really just fear. Yeah. You're you're you're afraid of people are going to know something about you or you're going to become someone that you don't want to become. And we we get I've told my wife before like just don't back me in the corner. You know, I've got a bucket and and with you the bucket's like a 55gallon drum, but it can only take so much. And if I get backed in the corner, I'm going to get scared and then I come out, you know, just like I said a minute ago. But these words, I have no idea where they come from. Now, that's changed over, you know, our 11 years of marriage, and it's gotten a million times better. We we we had we've had fights in the past over the stupidest stuff. No, it's I told him I go, "This is like the stupidest thing we're talking about, but we wind up in the closet, but it brings up everything else, which I'm sure Oh, yeah. Well, see, and and I've can't have days like we can't have cuz it it affects you for days, you know? We don't we can't afford that. I go, we got to find a way to resolve conflict differently because the problem wasn't the issue. That's not we could resolve that. That's not it's not an unresolvable. Nobody had an affair. Nobody went out and did drugs and alcohol. Nobody went crazy off the end. You know, it wasn't like this big life moment. It was just these stupid little things. and and not I shouldn't say stupid cuz they're meaningful because they hurt you know he had hurt my feelings and and then he thought I was being ridiculous you know but so there's still there's there's some meaning to them but I'm saying it's nothing that you can't get beyond if you just talk it out right like normal human beings you know like mature human beings but we got to get to where we're mature in our conversation and not we can't even see talk to each other I mean when it gets like that so it it helped me see that I'm actually backing her into a corner. I mean, let's face it, man. We're all flawed humans. She's a flawed human. I'm a flawed humans. And we can all at times be a little bit manipulative, okay? Especially if we want to try to get our way on something or we can not have the facts right when we have to recall something that did or did not happen. You know, we just we all do that. But man, I I would have a tendency, okay, I'll I'll I'll let that one go, but I store it in my memory bank. Okay, and then it'll happen again in another way and maybe I'll let that one go, but I've stored it in my memory bank. And let's say a third or fourth time, all of a sudden, my memory bank goes, there's a pattern here. She's manipulating. She's lying. She's deceiving. And that little boy in here is saying, you're never going to turn me into a chump. M and I will come at her with with all that hurt and pain. Yeah. with but but and try to try to um isolate it to that moment and then pick apart every sing and unfortunately for her I have I have an extremely accurate almost photographic memory on a lot of stuff especially when I know it's going to work in my favor and I've backed her into a corner and now she's not hearing or seeing anything other than I'm not safe right now. Yeah. You know. No. Yeah. And that's exactly how I feel. It's not safe. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. So, for for people that may be listening to this episode, specifically the supporting spouse of, you know, somebody that's in recovery and and we're talking about being uh that generational breaker, not the generational blamer, and you get to see the, you know, the brokenness or the the sad or the dark side of the past, right? Um when you when you have those conversations um and you're speaking or somebody's going to hear this and or you're speaking to that that supportive spouse, it's important um for you to see the brokenness because you can forgive then, right? Um, but if he hadn't been that vulnerable, um, do you think these conversations would get harder and more arguments would happen and and what's your just your take on that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that um, two people who are willing to choose to believe the best in someone, two people. So, I choose to believe the best in James, you know, like there's something I told him. I came across on his phone one day and I just said, I'm going to choose to believe the best instead of let this let go go find him and just try to get at him, you know? I just thought I'm going to let and and it's just making those choices that this person has me, this person because either you trust in a relationship or you don't. Mhm. There's no in between. if you if the the enemy will have a way with you if you don't. So, um I think that if two people aren't willing to be vulnerable and really share their heart, it's going to be very difficult, especially where we're at in life. Like, you know, we we married later in life. You know, we were both married before and both we've gone through a lot of stuff. I went through sexual abuse as a kid. I went through rape. I went through abortion. I had my you know, and I say that easily now, but it's been a lot of years. I had a lot of healing. did all the hard work. Yeah. You know, but you know, we've gone through a lot of stuff. I've thankfully, you know, I've been a believer since I was 20. So, James came into knowing Christ. Now, he's amazing for somebody who he he knew the word of God. He just didn't know Jesus. So, he just grabbed on to all that really quickly. But, I would say that if some if two people aren't willing to do that, it's going to be a challenge. You have to get help or you will you will it's going to be tough. you're going to have a really rough life. You're either going to suffer a lot for a long time and most people don't make it through that. They quit. Um so, and you have to be two people determined to press through. But more than anything, Eric, yeah, I think being vulnerable is a huge The fact that he told me that actually made me feel like I mean, just it took away any frustration or upset or anything that I had going on, anything. Cuz that vulnerability just lets you know. It's almost like confirmation that he's he's saying you're my person. Yeah. Like I'm not telling you this because I want to let my guard down. I'm telling you this because I want you to to help me. And I will tell you I just because he shared something about himself. I mean, you know, uh, iron sharpens iron. So when you bring two people together, you know, if you want to really be the best you can be, you're going to both be exposing a lot of things about each other that you don't see. I had a lot of blinders on with my kids because I was I was mama bear for a lot of years. Nobody has said anything to me about my children and I had to put him in the right place in our marriage and it's still difficult. I want to cry when I think about it. Still difficult. You can cuss, you can cry, whatever you need to do. We'll get some tissue. Thanks, Eric, for the permission. But no, I mean, you know, I have a son, youngest son, that's an addict right now, active addiction. Um, and so James has had to help me through a lot of that cuz he was doing a lot of the stuff, you know, taking advantage and, you know, and a lot of that I just saw as being there for my kid, you know, and I learn I have learned so much from him. And it's been painful. That's a painful process when he's telling me, "You need to do this. You need to take a stand." And I'm like, "Well, I've I pretty much have been a single mom for many years and have been handling stuff, and now you're coming in." And he came in. I'm serious. Like I'm talking right as soon as we got together. Well, it's tough. I mean, especially as a parent to find I've started saying this a lot lately. It's tough to find the balance between um enablement and support. It's like it shouldn't be a gray line, but it's a very knife edge sometimes between the two. And it's not I mean he tells me those things, but it's not his job to do that. And that's where he's had to learn. Okay, I can tell you that, but I'm the one who has to make those decisions when it comes to No, as long as it's not coming between us. But I'm just saying, you know, I have to I have to determine when my son calls me if I feel like it's support or if I feel like it's enabling. And I'm smart, you know, and he's taught me a lot. So, um, and that's a hard, you're very right, like, you know, it's a very, very fine line. Yeah. So, how about you, bud? you um how do you stay sober when you get in those uh cuz you're 2 years in. You said two years in. I'll be uh I know we don't get any fronts in this deal, but yeah, I if God willing, you know, one day at a time, I'll be two years clean. Um August 31st. Yeah, we're going to speak it into existence. Yeah, absolutely. You know, Amen. I like that. It made me um I'll just say this real quick before I ask you my question. Uh my sobriety date is on September 27th and I used to go to these this one meeting and they wouldn't let me celebrate um because the the celebratory meeting was on the 26th and I they they said, "Well, we're not going to let you celebrate." Oh my goodness. Wow. Legalist. I'm sorry. We celebrate you. Well, I'm celebrating anyway. So that's why I say that. Yeah. Yeah. We're believing that that's the thing. I do believe that. Yeah. when you have that hard conversation or you have those arguments, you know, the old us can come through real easy. It does. Um, but the old us as far as like, I'm just going to go take a drink. I'm just going to go get How how would you speak to the the listener out there? They may be a lot younger than you. They may be your same age. They may be a lot older than you. How how do you um keep your sobriety first, being a little selfish as you, you know, have those tough conversations? Well, you know, I think it goes right into what we're talking about right now. You know, and again, as I've been listening to her, my mind's been going. I have learned through painful experience that I'm only as sick as my secrets, number one. So, it's what I'm if I'm hanging on to some of those intrusive thoughts um and I'm not able to put some light on those either through talking to another uh you know, another friend in recovery or my sponsor or her um uh you know, those will set me up for potential disaster. Mhm. you know. So, first and foremost, I try to shed light on everything, you know, and uh it's it's funny we're talking about she had mentioned she found something on my phone. She has full access to my phone, literally. I mean, she knows all the passcodes, everything. It's the first relationship ever that I've been able and willing to do that. Really? Yeah. In fact, I I was telling her, we kind of made a joke of it because it's sometimes I still get so astonished by that that I'm ready, able, and willing to do that. Um, obviously I had a past life before her and I got together and and when I would get into a I was a serial relationship guy, you know, cuz I just couldn't sustain anything, you know, cuz I was so selfish and self-centered and nobody could tell me I was that, but I was. But the first conversation I would have with my new hostage that you know I called my girlfriend is I would hold my phone up and I would say you see this okay this is mine okay if I ever see this in your hand we're done really I would have that conver I mean the arrogance of that he wasn't that I' been like well goodbye I'll tell you what it's because I did have and I did have stuff to hide you know and it was still uh I don't want to say little, but it was just a younger version of you throwing up the wall, right? Yeah. So, we actually um are very transparent with each other. You have to be and that's a big key. That's not always easy. Yeah, it's not easy. Um my wife and I had a conversation just the other day. She's like, I want you to I want you to share your location. I'm like, why is do you not trust me about something? And it was because I was traveling here. She's like, no, it's not that. I just want to make sure I can if if you can answer the phone. I want to know that I can just look at mine and be like you're in not that you in the place you need to be, but I know that you're alive or moving or something. She didn't give me that option. She went into my phone and turned my and the first time I realized that she was tracking me. No, I had a problem with that at first. I'm like, you know, but then I stopped. that was just old behavior, you know, and uh and now I had never done anything and I never will to to break that with my wife. And so it made me feel it wasn't that I wasn't willing to. It made me feel like you guys don't just have it on. We have both our locations. Yeah. I mean on what's it life 360? So I'm one of the kids to get the 360. She watches me and the boys and I guess and there's something and it's nothing to do with um mistrust. Um although it does feel safe and I will tell you I have been in a relationship where I looked at it and they were not where they said they were. So and that but I never have I don't go into a relationship with that kind of attitude to me. I go in with full trust and then if I start seeing negative things that's when my trust will change. But I've never seen that with him. He's been extremely transparent. I didn't ask him to do any of that when we got together. I would have waited over time until I felt like comfortable to say that to him like it would make me feel good if you but he actually did all that from the very beginning and so did I. And you know and I just um but for a woman just so you know I'm sure you know this but but we just like to know where you're at. It just makes us have peace like I'm like oh okay he's cool. Not a woman so I don't get that but I get it. I mean I do it and for us men there's still that little mechanism where he goes hey she's trying to control me. You know what's funny is then he started using it on me. He goes, "Your location's gone on." I'm like, "Oh my goodness, I didn't know that." And I mean, I bet James will understand what I'm about to say. There's for for people that are were in addiction, there's a certain drug or high that comes along with just doing whatever you want, the wrong thing or like and I don't want to say the word sneaky, but just having that control even over something like that like I can control this like I need to control this if that makes sense. Do you think that's an addiction thing or a guy thing? Um I think it's an addiction thing. I really do. I think that Well, I guess there's some guys who just Yeah. I mean, and that's just my point of view. Like, it's it's a it's addiction mindset. Um, I'm not saying that you're a full-blown addict because you don't want to share your location. It's just like I used to get a thrill or a high just from doing wrong and not getting caught. Does that make sense? Like, oh, it makes total sense. So, I'm like, yeah, no, it does. Oh, yeah. Hell no. You're not going to find out anything I'm doing. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to be at this place 2:00 in the morning. Nobody's ever going to know. And I wake up tomorrow morning. It's just like whatever. Even when I try. That's total rebellion. Yeah. Like I am right. If if it if this was me doing it like I can go do whatever I want to do. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? You just need to trust I'm doing the right thing. But and you know what you is so cool about the where you're at now and where James is is you think that's freedom, but actually it's bondage. And what freedom is is actually saying, you know what, here's where I'm at. you know, because then there's the freedom of of peace in your life and and somebody else being accountable to somebody else and there's there's something about that that is very freeing. I don't know if you agree with that. Maybe you're like, "Well, I really need to go." I do. It's just it's just my old stinking thinking. It is. And actually, I'm that's what I'm writing about right now, but thinking, yeah, I'm writing about bad beliefs. That's my next book. becomes I think one of the most widely used and most addictive drugs in the world today for all of us is that powerful feeling of superiority. Yeah. Yeah. That's just selfish. It's intox. It's intoxicating. It's in the book too. There's a balance of selfishness and then just healthy selfishness for him and I. We have to have healthy selfishness because if we don't maintain sobriety, we are no good to you or any of the kids. I agree. We're no good to Las Vegas, Dallas, Georgia, wherever you want to put us at. We're no good. You know what I mean? So, there's a balance for that. But I know we didn't get talk a whole lot about um your relationship now. And that's okay. you know, this this conversation kind of led through generational um your generation, your generation, and then your generation now. So, tell us real quick before we close. Where are you guys at now in your relationship? You you live in Vegas. You're working on a new book. No, we live here. You live here. We live in Texas. Yeah. Okay. For some reason, I thought you lived in Vegas. We work a lot in Vegas. We go back and forth a lot. Yeah. Where um what are you guys working on right now? Give us an update on on how life is before we close. Yeah. Well, do you want me to share? So, um because you have this what you had to tell me before we started the boss boss lady. I do have shine like a boss. Shine like a boss. Um and my next book is the boss breakthrough and that's all on bad beliefs and and um learning to lead with grit and grace. Um James book, you know, obviously awakened. You've read it. Um his book came out uh about less than a year ago and we're we're going into full-time ministry. So, we're actually um JAM Ministry is our ministry. It's James and Michelle. So, Jam Ministry. I love that. And uh and you know what? We are excited about just serving Eric. That's our heart. You know, I would say yeah, we have all these this is I've been doing books a long time. This is my This is But this is a different season for me. James and I've never been with a man that wants to pray with me, that wants to go to church, that's hungry for God. It's it's like a miracle in my life. I mean, I wake up and go, "Wow, I am living the dream I have dreamed of my entire life." That's awesome. And it's not the big huge house or the big, you know, you know, 6acre ranch. I mean, yeah, we we like all those things, but what And we don't have that right now, by the way. I was going to say cuz I'm coming over later. We plan to have that, but we live in Cleburn, Texas. Yeah, we live in and they have ranches up, beautiful ranches. But I mean, right now our focus is how can we serve? How can we show up? So, we have a podcast, too. And we're just doing a lot of things to find ways to serve digitally, in person. Um, we're hoping to we're supposed to be in Las Vegas. We're going to work on I'm going to cook for the homeless. I had a restaurant, so I'm a chef. And Okay. So, we're just doing different things. Anything we can do to make a difference, that's our heart. Yeah. And you're leaving a legacy. It's not about the light that's on you, the light that's in you. So that's good. Yes. Leaving legacy to change like what you said in your book to change our children's hearts and their minds and their spirits to show them consistency and that guess what you can have hope. There is hope for something that's great and they get to tell a story even your son that we, you know, I'll be praying for him. But thank you. But you talked about, you know, things the way it were with with your grandfather and your mom and everything that you guys are doing to just change that. Not not to hide it or be ashamed of it, but just make it better for for the next generation that you guys have a part in. But I just want to say uh thank you so much for coming and being on the Recovery God podcast. Um I love what you're doing. I really appreciate that. This platform is for people to hear your story. Um, and what I liked about yours is that we didn't have to dig all the way into all the things, but you gave a great point of view of what generational being a generational breaker looks like. So, thank you for your transparency. I'm going to tell you that I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Yeah, two years is a big deal. Two years, one day, 15 years. It's a good feeling. So, I'm proud of you. Well, thank you, Ron. And uh I'll return that. All right. Very proud of you. It's not an easy road sometimes. And then I'll have 15 years September 27th. That's beautiful. Blessing. Yeah, I know. Well, thanks so much for coming by. I appreciate you guys. Thank you.