My Addiction Was "Doing": Escaping Burnout & Finding Stillness | Recovery Vow Podcast

In this thought-provoking episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with Jeff Burningham, an entrepreneur who built billion-dollar companies and ran for Governor of Utah, only to realize his greatest struggle wasn't failure—it was an addiction to "doing."

Jeff opens up about climbing the mountain of success only to find a "cold, howling wind" at the top. He shares the profound realization he had on the banks of the Ganges River regarding life and death, and how that led him to write his national bestselling book, The Last Book Written by a Human.

Together, they discuss the rise of AI as a "cosmic mirror" for humanity, why we numb ourselves with achievement and technology, and why the simple act of sitting in stillness is the most radical tool for healing we have. This conversation is a wake-up call to stop "human doing" and start "human being."

On This Episode:
• The "addiction to doing" and the emptiness of outer achievement
• The Ganges River moment: Seeing life, death, and rebirth simultaneously
• Why AI is a "cosmic mirror" that forces us to look at ourselves
• Meditation: Why sitting still is terrifying but necessary
• How to find "flow states" in nature to heal the brain
• Why "Heaven is Now" and the importance of the present moment

Connect with Jeff Burningham
Book: The Last Book Written by a Human
Website: jeffburningham.com

Connect with Jacob:
Music: J-Klein on all streaming platforms
Instagram: @officialjkline


Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  [music] Jeff, I'm excited to have you on the Recovery Bow podcast today. For you guys that are just tuning in, I've got Jeff Burningham that's going to join me on the Recovery Bow podcast. Now, I looked at some of um uh your your history. you you are well known and I'm excited to dive right in. But um why don't you take us on a journey? Like first of all, let me just go back. I love your haircut. Yeah, Eric, you look good over there, man. It would be like I I wish I had my readers. I'd put my glasses on and it would be like looking in a mirror. Um [laughter] but I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and hanging out with me. I I want to talk about all the things, but I want to dive right in. Tell me all about Jeff. Tell me what tell me what you would want the the the listening folks to know first off as soon as you were to talk to somebody. Well, the most important thing I'm a father of four and uh and actually a grandpa. Things happen fast here in Grandpa Jim. Yeah, things happen fast here in Utah. I'm a I became a grandpa when I was 47 years old. So, I have a one one-year-old grandson, a father of three boys and a girl, and I'd say married to uh my soulmate Sally. And so I' I've built lots of companies, large companies here in Utah. I ran for governor in the state of Utah dur lost during the pandemic. Now have released this uh interesting book called the last book written by a human. It's about humanity and AI. It's been a national bestseller. So there's a one minute background uh of me, but most important is obviously human relationship and and our relationships with family. I love it. So take us through. Now I I want to be a lot of times I'll read through like what Britney sent me like your your your scope and all these things that you're mentioning now. Um but I I like to be surprised just as much as a first- time listener is. Yeah. Um I did see all this. I saw where you went to school at and everything. Did you have a a past uh in addiction at all? And what led you to talk about the the recovery that that you speak on like modern recovery and things like that? Yeah, I mean I aren't we all addicts in one form or another, I think. Or I might argue. Yeah, I know we're all in recovery in [laughter] some form or another. That's for sure. Uh if anything, my my addiction is an addiction to doing. And I think that's an addiction that so much of us have. It's interesting. talk about in the book that I climbed my little mountain of success just kind of doing doing there's always something more you can do and I think the erroneous picture that we all have is that by doing more we can be more and that's just not true. I talk about getting to the top of the mountain and and I say there's nothing but a cold howling wind. Just void and more void on top of that. So what do you do when you're at the top? You're you've done all the things you thought you were supposed to do. Um instead of kind of looking outside of yourself, which is part I think of the addiction of doing is you're looking for outside validation. You're, you know, you're trying to acquire things. You you think that the answers are outside of you, but really the answers that we're all searching for, in my opinion, Eric, are inside of us. And so there's nothing really to do once you get to the top except pick up the pieces on the way down of a little bit of a tattered life because of the pace that you kept. and go back down to the valley of the shadow of death and look inside yourself, which is something all addicts and most of us are afraid of doing is looking inside of ourselves. No, you're you're right. I mean, if you were to ask my wife now, like, I can't sit still. And I think it's a part of the addictive personality I have. Like, it's a it's exactly what you were kind of saying. Um, it's I want people to see that I'm doing this this this. I took the enagram. You ever heard the enagram test before? So, I'm a three. It's like a I think it was a leader, but just like a doer and just a non-stop. And so, that's a good thing, but there's a lot of bad that goes along with that. Yeah. Sword, right? Yep. And you just want to complete things and because you I missed out on so many years of of not finishing or doing well and so it's like I' I've got to catch up, you know? I've got to and it's like a man so many great things have have happened and I mean the things you see on the way up the top of the mountain right and I don't even know if I've reached the top of my mountain yet and I think that's where my mind gets confused in that but I do recognize it like it's a constant I want to keep going I want to keep going I want to keep going but what happens when you get there so I when you were saying that it was it's funny like I think about like when I was a kid you know playing a certain video game or something and you make it to the and [laughter] and it's like what happens? It's over. Well, it's just over, you know, there's [laughter] there's nothing that happens. Yeah. Do it again. It's funny. I've been an adjunct professor uh of entrepreneurship to thousands of students at the university down the street from me, BYU, here in Provo, Utah. And uh one of the things that I always say to them is that the most simple ideas are often the most powerful. and therefore the most neglected and one of those Eric that everyone knows you see it on like posters and whatever but the joy is in the journey right that's one of the most simple ideas that's the most powerful but the most neglected so the point is it's not about winning the video game it was about being with your buddies hanging out talking trash it was about the journey it's not about a destination and I think we can apply that at macro level you know here in life and in existence it's not about any destination it is about the journey it is about the process and the interesting idea or challenge I think for humans one of them in the age of highly intelligent machines or in the age of AI when those machines are getting better and better at doing so much of what we're used to doing Eric what are we left with we're left with our being that we are human beings after all, not human doings. So, um I think that AI presents an interesting opportunity for transformation and growth and uh for humanity here. Yeah, I'm I'm not offended or scared of AI. I know a lot of people are and some of the listeners that may that may hear us talk about this, you know, may have turned their head, but I I think we just there's no way to to dodge it at this point. It's here. It's coming. I use it every day. Yeah. Um and and where I'm at, they're building some massive AI data centers all around us and um some people are upset about that. So tell us um as you're looking uh and talking about being on top of that that mountain and talking about the journey, how can we apply this to our life and and how are you um how how would you loop in your AI thinking or concepts to be applicable to to your description of the mountain? Yeah, I think we number one, [snorts] we have to make sure we're climbing the right mountain. You know what? What is what is the mountain that we really want to climb? And is it again, is it one that we've maybe been taught that is good but maybe not the best? You know, is it about outer achievement? Is it about status, who you know, what you have? Or is it something quieter? Is it about your inner peace? Is it about stillness, transformation? And so again, just be careful, I guess, what mountain you're climbing. Number one. Number [snorts] two, I would say like I like I just said, not to the joy is in the journey. I mean, these cliches are powerful for a reason, and it's the truth. The joy is in the journey. So, one way to translate that maybe in a religious context or a southern context, which by the way, I served a mission for in Charlotte, North Carolina. You know, I grew up uh Mormon and Christian background and served a mission there. But uh heaven is now heaven is what you and I make every moment to be. I think the quote unquote life of God is one endless cycle of life, death, and rebirth. It's always the present moment. And so the future only exists in our mind. It often creates anxiety. The past is behind us. we can't go back there. So the point is bring your best self to every present moment. And that's what we lose when we're climbing. Sometimes we're not present. And that's obviously what addiction, by the way, robs us of, right? Is the ability to be present. We're looking to numb ourselves. We're looking to not face pain or trauma or dysfunctional patterns. And so I think there's so much to be learned in the climb and there's also just as much to be learned maybe even more in the descent. [clears throat] I love that. Can you uh elaborate a little bit on your thoughts behind um being present with yourself whether you're maybe let's do this in two parts. Do this in a way that you're speaking to someone that may be in addiction and they're looking for the way out. Okay? Because some people listen to this podcast and they're still out there in the struggle, but then also for people that may be uh in their recovery and they're still trying to figure their new self out. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And so they still could be on the on the hill, they could be at the top and don't know it yet or they could be on the decline, but just the way you said that to where they need to understand that they need to be present with their with themselves. How how would you encourage one to do so? Yeah. I mean, I think the only way to heal is to feel what we need to feel. And addiction, in my experience, I've been a bishop in my uh church and faith life. That's kind of a leader of a congregation of 500 souls and worked with addiction. I'm not a therapist, so this isn't my background is entrepreneurship and now authorship, etc. But um addiction is so often um it's either a numbing of our feelings or a reluctance to face them. So the most powerful thing that I have done, I know it's not easy. Again, this is another one of those things that is so simple and powerful, but it's neglected. We need to sit with ourselves. So, ever since the governor race, I have meditated for 20 minutes a day. There's no right way to meditate. You don't need to judge yourself when you're meditating. You will at first. Your mind will wander. That's okay. The purpose of meditation is to sit, do nothing, and try to feel yourself, to go inside yourself, and to feel these things that you don't want to feel. Now, for an addict, obviously, this can be incredibly scary. But the most transformative practice that I've um included in my life, especially over the last 5 years since the governor's race, is just sitting in stillness and silence for 20 minutes. and some days it's unbelievable and some days it's pure hell and my mind is all over the place. But just having that discipline to go back to that a second thing real quick that I'll mention um if you're talking about tactics or specifics I think flow activities especially in nature what I mean by flow activities something that you love this could be walking hiking mountain biking snow skiing wake surfing what I don't care what it is do yoga you know um do something that you love that get you in your body and hopefully get you into nature. Nature has a way of mirroring to us. It speaks to us when we're in it and it provides a mirror for us to understand ourselves better. And it's also showing us the reality of what is all the time. Nature goes through this life, death, and rebirth cycle through the seasons, the rising and setting of the sun, etc. And so, um, a great, you know, resolution here in 2026 or thought is to get into your body and do a flow activity that turns you on, something that excites you and especially if it can be in nature, that's a way to reconnect with yourself. That's really good. I for me, everything you mentioned, the common denominator was it was pretty much outside except for maybe the yoga. I don't do any of those things, but I do play golf. Yeah. And I I love to play golf. Um and it puts me outside. You're in Augusta, Georgia. You have to play golf. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Does everyone in Augusta, Georgia? Yeah. You got to play though. Yeah. But I love it and it does put me outside and and some of those moments where I'm like looking at a shot or waiting on someone that I'm playing with. You are exactly right. you see um and just kind of just be outside. I I see how maybe how beautiful the golf course is. And not to get, you know, too far gone, but I mean it does give you that, okay, I'm just going to be here for just a minute and just look and it's just really really pretty, you know, and and sometimes I sit in church and there's these windows to the right of me and and I'll sit there and there's the same tree and every season that goes by, you just watch that same tree just go through the change, right? Like right now there's nothing going on with that tree. There's no leaves on it. There's no life activity or things like that. It's dead and but it's it's maybe it's going to get trimmed or pruned and then it's springtime, you know, it's just a new season where things change. Um then it's summertime and it's just it's it's as full and as big as it's going to be and it looks the best it's going to look. And you're right. I I have thought about that just recently just thinking about leaves that fall on the ground. and I was complaining about all the leaves in the yard or something and it's like you don't have to do anything. They they go away on their own, you know, they'll they'll just become part of the earth again, you know, it's just it's insane how you can just how these things shed um and just create new and and and I need to do exactly what you're saying more often. I I have a pretty good prayer life like when I'm by myself, I'll I'll talk to God or but I don't meditate like I used to. When I first got in recovery, I was taught how to meditate. And man, that was that was good. I've even tried the yoga thing, but the the meditation part um and just being alone with yourself is something we could all do a little bit more often. Um yeah, the scary part though, I will say I've prayed. Oh, keep going, Eric. Yeah. Um when when in addiction, it's Oh, I'm sorry. In addiction, we don't want to be by ourselves. I mean, it is it's a scary for me. It was a scary place to be. Um, now I kind of want it now because so many great things have happened and these doors open and you got family and you get you get, you know, all these material things or whatever. But we don't take time long enough to just hit pause and and and do what you're doing, which is just be present with yourself. And I think it's important for people to to realize that whether you are dealing with an addiction, recovery, or just, you know, whatever. Yeah. Two two comments if I might. And I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate the depth Yeah. of your soul. Anytime we're with another human being, we're on sacred ground, Eric. And in an age when our kids and we are getting more and more lost in our devices, into the machine, so to speak, we need to take time and be with people and lean into those real human intimate relationships. Yeah. I think of prayer as talking to God or with God. And I think of meditation as listening to God, you know, listening. That's how I view it. And I I want to make one comment. That's a good point. We need to make sure we put that into the bio. Yeah. And I think one thing that's interesting with um what we've been talking about, why is it when you're looking at the tree or when you're lining up a shot or you're seeing the view as your buddy or partner is taking a shot, what is it that gives you that sense of awe and wonder? I'm just cur like how would you describe it or what why do you think that is? I can tell there's a there's a slight lag. So, I'm going to just u give an answer. I should make sure that I'm not talking over you and and they can edit this part out. Um, for me in that moment, it's when I'm all alone but with people and so it's like I have to wait my turn. And so I've got this opportunity just to be with me for just a minute. And just recognize I'm not at work. Um I possibly don't have family or or the kids around, which is not a bad thing, but just sometimes you just need to have that time away. And then um I'm doing something that I like doing that I enjoy doing or that I love. Um and so it's just it's just where I'm not doing anything for just that amount of time. and and I just get that opportunity to just stop. The phone's not ringing. I'm not having to send an email, you know? It's just there's nothing to do but just be there and wait. Yeah. Here's we have a little lag again, but here's what I'd say. I think you're out of your thinking mind. So your mind is quiet for the chatter in your mind slows down or goes away for a minute and you just stand in natural awe and wonder at the beauty of nature, at the beauty of being alive, of existence. You feel the majesty of what we're all experiencing here. What's interesting in terms of talking to uh uh about addiction is often obviously there's a lot of addiction, you know, having to do with substances and as a as a Mormon guy or at least that being my background, I don't have a lot of experiences with alcohol or drugs or anything really. Um, and so what I would say though, having worked with people like that, is you can either numb yourself via addiction and kind of go below thinking, but again, that's kind of what you're searching for. You're wanting the chatter in your mind to calm down, to quiet down, so you numb it out. You go below thinking, or you can elevate kind of above thinking. And I think it's through these practices, these healthy practices that we've been talking about uh in meditation, prayer, flow activities, real conversations with real people. We can get out of our minds and in like this flow state above thinking and we can experience some healing of of trauma and pain that is part of the human condition. I mean, our woundedness is what binds us together as humans. And you could say that we're on a journey of healing together, you know, kind of walking each other home via this journey of healing. And it's a it's not an easy one, but it's a beautiful one at that for sure. Or can be. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about um tell me a little bit about your book because I want to make sure that we um plug that for you and um and tell us why you decided to write it and and why that moment was the right time. Yeah. So I built several billion-dollar companies here in the state of Utah about eight years ago. I sat on the banks of the Ganges River in Varonasi, India. And I felt myself I be I was an addicted I was addicted to doing like I said and I felt myself coming back to myself in a real way. I was looking upon a scene that was so foreign growing up as a a wester you know in the western United States and as a Christian. This is not a scene I was used to but it felt so familiar to my soul. to the left there was dead bodies with one white sheet over them. It was one of the largest um crematoriums in the world. These bodies were lit on fire and within a couple hours those ashes of those bodies were swept into the river and flowing down right in front of me where there were pilgrims and locals being baptized literally like reborn, you know, through the ashes of death. 50 yards then to the right, even further down the river, there were people doing one of the most mundane tasks of the day, the laundry. There was like an army of people, you know, slapping the clothes on the rocks and dunking. And I realized in that moment that man, this is all about micro and macro cycles of life, death, and rebirth. And uh I came back to myself and I committed to slowing down. It wasn't right away that I did that because I came back and I decided to run for governor in the state of Utah. But having lost that election into the summer of 2020, the summer of the pandemic, I had space and time for the first time in my adult life. And with space and time, anything can be created. And so, and this is what was created, this book, the last book written by a human, becoming wise in the age of AI. The reason, the way it came about is that um you know, I dove back into I'm a venture capitalist. One of the companies I've started is been an investor in a lot of early stage tech companies. And I started trying to catch up on the tech innovation that I had missed running a statewide campaign for 18 months. And by far and away, the one that stuck out was AI. And to me, it was all about the existential questions that it was going to cause humanity. You know, what's different between artificial intelligence and this and my intelligence? what is the difference between wisdom and intelligence? It was going to, I think, cause a lot of us over time to ask these important questions. Who am I and what's really going on here? And so, the book came out of those uh wanderings for three or four years and trying to understand uh those bigger existential questions. And so, it's a very personal book, very vulnerable, and I really would not have written it certainly in the way I did if I didn't feel like I had to. I view this as my little piece of art, as an offering to the divine. And when I say the divine, I'm saying to hum humanity. And so, yeah, it's not a path that I thought I would take, but it's one that I felt called to and compelled to take. So, just to kind of pick up where you you just left off, can you tell me what your thoughts are and your insights into AI? And um it's hard to say like it can't I don't know. I mean how how is AI going to be used um to help us with what you're sharing? Can AI help us um be better at being on our own? Can AI help us in addiction? Can AI help us in recovery? Like what's your perview on AI? Yeah. The way that I talk about AI in the book is as a cosmic mirror to humanity. It's really just a collection of all of our data, Eric, like all of human data and then how we interact with it and then it provides a reflection back to us. And as you know, a reflection can be a powerful thing if we see ourselves more clearly and this is applicable to addicts, right? Like if we can see the addiction from almost an observer point of view outside of ourselves and if we can see our situation clearly then we have the chance to change. So I think that AI will be a crucible that's humanity must walk through together. And I think the purpose the quote unquote divine purpose of why it's here is to help us transform and evolve to help us become better. Actually, I think so. I think it can do that. Now, that's going to be hard as hell. That's going to take a lot of work. There's going to be, unfortunately, it seems like humans need a lot of pain to make progress. But, so we're going to experience a lot of that via job loss and addiction to technology and other things. But, uh, by and large and over time, I think it's something that can help us become better. At least that's kind of the picture that I paint in the book. Like you said, we could put our heads in the sand and pretend like this isn't happening, but that's just, you know, that's an unwise position to take because it is coming. So the question is, how do we point it towards human flourishing instead of human division? Yeah. No, you're right. um when I heard you mention this and I saw this as a part of the bio that was sent um uh technology addiction I I haven't looked at the numbers but do you have numbers of like uh the rise of that um because for me like I've always compared uh the cell phone to try to give people an idea of what addiction is feels like. So if you can take your phone and put it down for three days, not look at your calendar, not look at a text message, not answer a phone call for me, that pull is what addiction felt like and try to use that as an analogy or you know a comparison. But when you talk about tech addiction um have you ever look is are any of those numbers or stats in your book? Yeah, I mean no my my book isn't um it's not a textbook. It's not like u full of stats. It's more full of feeling. And the point is, Eric, all we have to do is go to any public place or be with people anywhere and we can see the pole of devices. You know, like how often do we go to dinner or a quote unquote party? Half the people are just looking down at their phones. They're not even present with the people around them. Mhm. And I really noticed this as a gubanatorial candidate in Utah. I would travel around, have all these meetings, all different kinds of meetings in different communities. [cough] And Utah's a pretty homogeneous place. I mean, we agree on a lot of things in Utah. It's why it's one of the best run states of the country, etc. One of the reasons. [snorts] And um I was shocked at neighbors that shared almost everything in common, how they would often be at each other's throats. They'd be focusing on their differences or their disagreements. Now, where did that came from? It came from the I'm going to say the almighty algorithm of social media, Eric. Like it, you know, it came from their social media feeds that was telling them, "Hey, we're different. you know things aren't the same you know like it was focusing on difference and division so um obviously we can see that technology addiction is a real thing I loved your analogy like just think of I mean just putting my phone away for 3 days like you said that gives me anxiety even you just saying that so this is something we got to work through together and uh and uh yeah it's something we got to work through together we can see its effects And again, our first general use experience with artificial intelligence has been the algorithm of social media. So I invite every person listening to this podcast, every mother and father to think about how social media has affected their family, their lives, how it's affecting their children's lives. and then to be wise to make good decisions around its use and maybe there are periods of fasting from technology from social media. Um yeah, it's it's can be super damaging and and it's very concerning. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, we I'm just as guilty of it. I'm so excited for people to see what my family and I are doing sometimes when we now my wife posts a lot and um and she tags me and things and and she just wants the world to just see we're a good family, we're healthy and things like that, but it just becomes the addiction comes back to um well, did they see it? You know, who liked it? Who who commented on something? And it's and then we just get caught up in that. And while we're getting caught up in that, oh well, let's see what let's see what Jeff and uh the Burning Hams are doing this week, you know, or and then you get the the Tik Toks. Now, I can tell you honestly, I'm a tick tocker. I love watching Tik Tok, but it's the it's the u the al my algorithm that's been created for me and the things that come across it just it just keeps me pulled in. And it's that short attention span that I've got now. Yeah. Of seven. You got me for seven seconds. And it just just and it and it goes back to my addiction too. Like I was that way with the addiction. Sometimes that that high would last just a short period of time and I had to have more and more and more and more. So that I guess people need to hear like these are simple signs of exactly what you're talking about. And even though you do 20 minutes a day with yourself, there's 24 hours in the day. And man, I wish I could tell you I did 20 minutes a day of just meditation. I wish I could tell you I did an hour worth. I had a guy uh on the podcast. I met him in California um and he talked about the importance of just your your breathing and these breathing exercises. Yeah. And a lot of people may hear this and they're like, "What what are these guys talking about?" But there is so much to that. Um his name is Jeremy Jackson. He actually was uh David Hasselhoff's son on the Yes. He was uh he was on Baywatch. Uh he doesn't do any acting or anything anymore, but um he he taught me that. He's like, "Man," and he did breath work with us um at a retreat I was at and then I had him come on the podcast and man, it just it was just so good. It was so good. Um, and then I can just see now mixing uh your your time of meditation in with that, especially for I keep going back to the newcomer people that find themselves in recovery. They have to figure out. So, I'm talking to people that may be listening to this and you're fresh in recovery one year or less. We are this new person. Um, and we have to do new things so that we don't go back to the old person. And I think it's what you're saying this the the meditation part is super important. The breath work is important. Things that I wish I had just continued to do. Now, I'm coming up on 16 years in sobriety, so I'm not saying you can't make it if you don't do those things, but man, they just get you get you locked into who this new person is pretty quick. Yeah. So, so much of who we are are these um unconscious or subconscious patterns or habits that we pick up. So addiction often comes from trauma in our past or from dysfunctional patterns that we observed in our culture, our family number one, our faith tradition, I mean what whatever the case may be. And again, if we could step outside of that almost as an observer and look look at the let's say the character Jeff Burningham and say which of these patterns is habitual and which of these are serving me and which are not. And obviously these addictive patterns are often just habits that need to be broken. And in that absence, in that space that is created, you got to fill it with a new, you know, it's important to fill it. And we've talked about some great things to fill it with like meditation, prayer, exercise, flow, activities. I mean people are always looking for the magic bullet but I'm telling you in my lived experience it's all about the simple things that those things are the most powerful and and the most simple and so we neglect them because we think that's too simple. No, it is establishing those healthy habits and patterns that that uh can serve us well. And we need there's a chapter in the book called pattern breakers. We need pattern breakers in the age of AI. I mean, like, we're entering unknown territory, a scary future. Change is the only constant. And we need people that think outside of the box in order to help us get to where we want to be as uh humans. I love that. It's I kind of smiled a little bit when you mentioned u pattern pattern breakers. Yeah. uh was one of the chapters um one of the chapters in in my book is called generational breaker not generational blamer um or or um goes into that kind of thinking and it's it's just funny how some of the things line up with what we're talking about and just you know coming from two different backgrounds I tell you I would love to um let listeners know how can how can they get their hand on your book and and what was the the uh the say the title one more time for Yeah, the last the last book found a book at Yeah, the last book written by a human, Becoming Wise in the Age of AI. And um yeah, it's sold everywhere. It's been a national bestseller since it's released. So you can get at your favorite place, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, Walmart. And uh, you know, I wrote the book to be a conversation starter to have conversations like this and certainly in boardrooms with CEOs and in political halls, but also Eric around the dinner table. So once you read it or it's also on Audible, so if you prefer to listen, listen to it. Let me know what you think of it. Reach out to me. I'm not hard to find. I have a website. It's just jeffburningham.com. very mixed feelings about social media of course based on what we spoke about today. But I am on, you know, most platforms just Jeff Burningham. So you can find me on your favorite and message me. Let me know what you think. I see every message and I really do care about a conversation that leads to a movement around human consciousness. I think that consciousness is rising and my bet is on a renaissance here in human consciousness over the next decade. And I think that AI is going to be a part of that. I think that interacting with intelligent machines and the existential questions it causes humans to ask will be a part of that um rise. I'm curious if you feel that way, Eric, down there in the south. Do you feel like consciousness is rising? Is awareness raising. Yeah, tell me what you think. I I totally agree. I I wish that more conversations like this did happen around the dinner table, but you're right, it's evolving very quickly. I mean, you think about the um the the rise of social media, let's say the last 15 years, and just how much it's changed. I think the the the work uh or or the things that AI will do for us um and because of us will happen a lot quicker. I think it's going to be in five years maybe. Yeah. Um I wish that um you know Charlie Kate is my daughter and um the conversations that we'll have around the table just because you mentioned the dinner table. It just made me think about, you know, my kids that are one's 18, one's 17, we won't have that conversation as much, but the conversations we'll have with her will just be completely different. Yeah. Because of that. Yeah. I want to ask can I ask you one more question? Like what was your experience writing a book? When did it come out? And what was your experience? So, um I work for a church in town called Stevens Creek Church and uh every January and August uh we do 21 days of prayer. And so, um maybe if you took 20 minutes and can every six months and just compressed it, maybe that's where I get my my um my time in like you do. But for 21 days, you know, I go in around 6:00 a.m. or 7 a.m. during the week and just spend like 45 minutes and just as deep of prayer as I can get and just kind of setting the tone for how I want the year to go. So, right now we're in 21 days of prayer. It's January. This episode will come out um in the next few weeks, maybe a month. Um and so it'll be over by then. But during August, uh 21 days of prayer two years ago, at that point, I'd been in my recovery for 13 years. And I'm like, you know, the world gave me a second chance. Um, and God, as I understood him, even though I didn't know him at the time, you know, gave me a second chance. And I've I've worked at this church for a decade. And what and so my um my legacy changed because of that second chance. So, what can I do one day when I'm not here um that I can leave, you know, a second chance for somebody else? And so I decided to write a book. Now, everybody wants to write an autobiography about themsel. I was like, I need to do that. I got all these stories. I mean, Jeff, there's so many stories from the addiction that that we could sit here and talk till tomorrow about them. But but I just I just wanted to create a book that maybe the church could use, u maybe, u people in treatment centers could use and they could just relate to hearing uh somebody's real life experience. I got sober um by going to treatment, but it was because the people that came in when they got off of work and they would share their story and I got to see the Jeff walk in that's you know building companies or I got to see a Susan walk in who's a a tax person or whatever that they were okay you know they they had a past but then they were okay and so their legacy was changed and so I wanted to write the book now the book um I didn't write an autobiography I'm not you know I've kind of joked around before you I'm not John F. Kennedy. I'm just Eric Kennedy. And so nobody's going to read a bio autobiography about me. [snorts] Um so I was challenged by my publisher to do something that that you wish was available um when you, you know, got into recovery. Well, there was really nothing out there for the supporting spouse of someone. And so um the original name of my book was going to be called Recovery Vow. And it's written as a workbook. So, it's not intimidating um for people that are newcomers or people that are still in their addiction, but um it's written for the husband and the wife to have a copy and they go through this workbook together and at the end of every chapter there's questions they answer from their own point of views and then they they they create a way to kind of come together and talk about it. And then we did write it. It can be used um in small groups. We have them in different uh treatment centers and clinical settings. Um, and then the name of the book is Marriage After Addiction: Take Back Your Life Together. Um, I really liked um, Recovery Vow. So, I kept that and I turned the work that I do. We're I'm now a nonprofit. Uh, I've been a nonprofit for over a year and a half. And so, we have the book that falls under the nonprofit. We have our podcast that falls under the nonprofit. We have our ongoing coaching and workshops called the Recovery Bow Collective that falls under the nonprofit. And we have our own brand and line of coffee. So, I wanted to, you know, everybody wants to do shirts, hats, and cups like that. I just didn't see a need to do that and just waste donor money. And so, um, a lot of people like to drink coffee and so we we partner with a group, um, and and we have our own not private line, but just our own line of coffee and people, that's one way they can support our um, nonprofit and and and it takes a lot to run this thing. So people donate monthly or um you know I give away the book for free and some people will donate for that and then they donate uh their purchase orders of coffee. And so it's helped us you know um become who we are. We we've grown to a worldwide reach. U we got I got numbers this past week of reaching I think eight eight different countries in 2025. And so I'm just thrilled about that. When you say we, is it you and your wife? Because we're we're creating [clears throat and cough] No, I'm talking from my team. I have a social media team that helps us kind of get out there. I have a I have an admin team. My wife is a big part of it. You know, she helps um uh when it comes when it's time or when it's needed, if it's couples that we're working with, but it's just been incredible to kind of get out of the way and watch God do something. So, it's not about um the amount of people um that maybe have bought a book or or we it's the the people that get something from this nonprofit. You know, they their lives have been changed, their marriage have been restored, they're a better parent, you know, just those are the stories that I love. Those are the numbers I love hearing about. Um so, I know that's not exactly the question you asked, but that's why I wrote the book. That's cool. And um was it a transformative process to you for you like writing the book? It was a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Um, it was a lot of work. It was transformative because now like Jeff, when you and I aren't here one day, when these beautiful bald heads are gone, we have a written word that we get to leave behind for people. That's right. This world's going to be a little sexier. I don't think I've seen the trans [laughter] when these bald heads are gone. I don't think the transformation Exactly. [laughter] I don't think the transformation's happened for me yet. I think it may happen later on. I think the transformation will be for for others. Um transformative for me would just just to be able to sit back and from a bird's eye view look at um how life [snorts] is now versus how it used to be. That is huge. That's cool. And how did the podcast come into it? When did you launch the podcast or I was told I had the perfect face for radio. Um, and [laughter] so I decided um to do the podcast as a way to uh get the book just to get the kind of book to get the book out um and and to create a platform where people just like you can come on and share their story because again that's kind of what helped me is just hearing people's life stories. Now, we don't talk about just addiction and recovery. Like, right now, we're talking about all kinds of recovery, all kinds of addiction, all kinds of of ways that the future's going to be different. Um, and I've had, you know, some actors come on, I've had, uh, families come on, and and we've talked about all kinds of stuff. Um, uh, I'm excited, not next week, but the following week, I have, uh, he's a younger guy. His name's Tanner Smith. He's on the TV show Love on the Spectrum. uh he's coming on the podcast with his parents. Now, people will ask when they hear this, why is Tanner Smith and his parents coming to your podcast? There's a couple reasons. One, he's trending. He's he's doing really well right now. But I think it's important for other parents to hear from parents of autistic children. One, just to know, you know, how they get through dayto-day, you know, what's the future look like, but also people that are in recovery. like I grew my family even more after my recovery. You know, a daughter came along, but if she was born with autism, uh I don't want that to feel like a burden in our conversation, but some people uh that could be a trigger for them or how am I going to do this, you know? Um I wasn't expecting this this curveball in life, you know, and so I just want I want people to see, you know, this is what reality looks like. Um, and you could be no issue in in addiction recovery and have an autistic child. Um, and and this is how this family worked through it. Or you could be um a person like me that uh grew your family even more or created a started your family after you got into your recovery. And this is how they they work through this this curveball. And there's many life curve balls, right? Um, and this is just one I want to talk about and it's about being a parent. That's cool. In recovery. When did you when did you start the podcast? How long ago? Yep. We started the recovery valve podcast probably six months after the book um was released. Maybe not that long. It's within six months though. Um we we we got got to work on it and it's been great. Um you know we get we get opportunity to connect um with folks like you all over the world. Um, and the conversation, you just can't run out of content. Um, and then, you know, it just helps fill the funnel, too. Like we we want to find uh new donors, new supporters through the podcast. We want to get the book in the hands of people uh that come to the podcast. We want to get the collective available to businesses and um families through the podcast. Um and we want to get our coffee if that's if that's the only way people want to support us is through that. It's it's just a way to give a platform to someone to come and share their story and then for us to kind of share our story and how we just want to help people. This isn't about we could I could care less about making money. This isn't about making I get money from working at a church. Yeah. This is about the legacy that I I wanted to leave. Yeah. And I you know I feel the same way about the last book written by a human. This is my little offering to the divine. Like I said, my little felt like a piece of art as I was working on it. And I felt transformed through the process and uh it's not about selling more books. It's about humans staying connected in the age of intelligent machines. And so yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. I appreciate being on your podcast. And do you have any other questions for me or about the book or about, you know, anything? I mean, I'm happy to No, I I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me on a Friday afternoon. I I know that you're a very busy man and it means the world that you you um would come on this podcast and just share what you've shared. I appreciate the work you've done. Um and I want to make sure that we can get people uh in front of you or connecting with you any kind of way we can. Uh but again, Jeff, just yeah, thank you so much for coming on the Recovery Val podcast. I appreciate it. And if people want to connect, if you've listened to this podcast and and Jeff was someone that you want to hear from, he did mention the ways that you can find him through his website or I even saw that you had a LinkedIn account. Um I'll be following you there. But um yeah, if if I can connect you through our website or through any of our social medias, I'll be glad to send you Jeff's information. But Jeff, again, thank you so much for being on the Recovery Bout podcast. Yeah, Eric, it's great to be with you, man. Good luck.