Healing Hidden Wounds: Trauma, Addiction & Recovery | Arlina Allen | The Recovery Vow Podcast

Today’s episode delivers an honest and deeply grounded conversation about recovery, trauma, and long-term healing.

Eric is joined by Arlina Allen, recovery coach, author, and podcast host, who shares her story of getting sober at 25 after years of childhood sexual abuse, family dysfunction, and emotional pain that shaped her relationship with alcohol, identity, and self-worth.

Arlina opens up about how early trauma and parental divorce created a deep sense of shame, powerlessness, and self-blame—patterns that later fueled addiction and destructive coping. She explains how trauma impacts the nervous system, why reactions are often “historical” rather than situational, and how unresolved pain shows up in relationships, anger, anxiety, and perfectionism.

With more than three decades of sobriety, Arlina reflects on the practices that supported her healing, including self-inventory, gratitude, mindfulness, and redefining her understanding of God in a way that felt safe, compassionate, and accessible. She also breaks down common misconceptions about 12-step recovery, the difference between meetings and the program, and why long-term sobriety requires ongoing spiritual and emotional maintenance.

This episode is a thoughtful exploration of what it means to heal from trauma, release shame-based beliefs, and build a life rooted in honesty, service, and personal responsibility.

On This Episode:
Arlina’s path to sobriety and early childhood trauma
How sexual abuse, neglect, and divorce shape addiction
Why emotional reactions are often tied to unresolved pain
The role of gratitude and mindfulness in recovery
Redefining God after religious wounds
Clarifying myths and misunderstandings about 12-step recovery

Connect with Arlina Allen:
Instagram: @arlinaallen
Book: The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics


Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  Hey, thanks for joining us on the Recovery Bow podcast. I'm in the studio today in Augusta, Georgia, and I have a fantastic guest. I can't wait for you guys to hear from, Miss Arlina Allen. Now, Miss Allen and I spoke probably a couple weeks back. Um, and this was she actually did like a pre-in for me, and I'm like, well, you're coming on my podcast, too. Is that right? But I think I said all the right things. Um, but I do want to just I want to dive right in, Miss Allen. Uh thanks thanks for everyone that's listening to the recovery valve podcast. If you're not listening on our YouTube channel, you can do so by following us on all of our social medias. And then when this episode comes out, I make sure the producers see this and we'll make sure that Miss Allen's contacts on her socials and all that are present. Let's just jump right in. Miss Allen, how are you doing today? Well, I'm doing very well. I'm loving that you're calling me Miss Allen. I feel so southern. [laughter] That's that southern. Okay, that's that. My mom would walk in this room and she's about this tall. She's a little lady. She'll slap me in the mouth. Say miss or ma'am or y'all or it's quite frankly, it's adorable. I love it. I love being Miss Allen. It kind of sounds like I feel like a preschool teacher cuz [laughter] little kids Miss Allen. Maybe I'll color some while you're doing what you're doing. There you go. Yeah. I'd love for you to walk us through because like when we talk, you've got like 150 years in recovery, but you're only 20 years old, but [laughter] walk us through like you know, you did you said you had a long time in recovery. Take us take us back in time and put us in the room with you. Like what did what did your addiction look like? And and uh when you tell the story, just take us take us there with you. Sure. Yeah. I've done this a bunch of times, so we should be and I love talking about myself, so there's that. So, we should be we should be just fine. [laughter] Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I got sober April 23rd of 94. I was 25 years old. So, I'm not going to make you do the math. I'm 57. I'll do the math on where I was at 94. I was [laughter] born in high school. With a head full of hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I [clears throat] had a head full of crazy. So, there's that. I was drinking in '94, too. I was using in 94. I think um that's around the time I hadn't gotten my driver's license yet, but I was wanting to do all the big kid stuff. Yeah. [laughter and gasps] I wanted to hang out with you probably like because you said you were 24 25. I was 25 when I got sober. Yeah. So I was I was all done though by the time you started. [laughter] And I had and I had had a good stretch already. So I I started drinking. I probably had my first drink when I was about between 8 and 10, which sounds crazy, but uh 8 and 10. Where were you at at 8 and 10 to have your first drink? Do you remember? Oh, yeah. I was I was at home. Um so my parents had divorced and my mother I think she had probably gone out to dinner or something. It wasn't like super late. And this is a long time ago when you could leave kids at home and nobody had a connection fit. But uh and I did have an older sister. She was almost 2 years older than me. So, she and I were left home alone. Mom went out and I decided it'd be a great idea to go for some of the booze that was in the cabinet. And and mind you, I grew up in a good Christian home. Dad is from Kentucky. So, I think maybe that's why I really love the southern draw. U my mother was an immigrant from Mexico City and uh but they had divorced by the time I was about seven. And there was a and to just back up a tiny bit, there was a couple of things that happened in my childhood that kind of set the stage for everything else. And I had been uh sexually abused by a neighbor and my parents divorced. How old you were when that happened? I was five. Seems like a common thread and in in trauma especially with females and please don't quote me on this. We'll have to go to chat GPT to make sure. But seem like that happens a lot for maybe male and female but espec especially females. something happens, some kind of traumatic thing happens when they're younger. It's so interesting because in the room, they say, the experts say that one in four women have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime. And I would argue that in the rooms of recovery, that statistic is reversed in the sense that only one in four have not been abused. It's almost [clears throat] it's almost across the board that uh women in recovery have experienced some sort of uh sexual abuse, which is kind of crazy. Um and we're finding out more and more that men are also having really traumatic sexual abuse uh experiences when they're young. It has never been more acceptable to, you know, admit and come forth with some of that stuff for men, too. So, it's it's not just women by any stretch. It's it's the guys, too. But that that was definitely my experience growing up. Can I ask you um this question just came to mind before you continue going on. Do you think that the same trauma that you and I face when we were younger, that trauma is going to be different as I wonder if the if the rate of sexually abused kids goes down because of the different technology and things that go up? like people like when you and I were younger um we watched cartoons on Saturday morning you know life was just different you know um and where would we you know where were we to to to be abused like that I don't think kids are in those kind of spaces anymore maybe I'm not sure it's so interesting that you bring up a really good point because in our generation you know mine we were we gave we had way too much freedom to be perfectly honest We were not supervised the way our kids are like because I was left to, you know, we I sort of grew up in that era where they were like, you know, go outside and play, come back home when the street lights come on, that kind of thing. Like there was no supervision. [laughter] There was no supervision whatsoever. We were just like out on the town. And so that left us to be that there was a lot of uh we were vulnerable is really what it was. And you know those of us who had traumatic childhood experiences, we grew up to be super overprotective parents. They say that I heard somebody tell me once that underprotective daughters are overprotective mothers. And I'm sure that goes for for the men too cuz my my husband didn't have uh abuse per se, but he had neglect which is a form of abuse. But he was pretty severely neglected. You know, his mom, it was benign neglect cuz his parents were divorced and mom was a nurse, so she was gone all the time. So, um, so we kind of grew up with this totally unsupervised. We were vulnerable and some bad stuff happened. Yeah. Right. Well, we just found things to do because we didn't have That's why I was asking about the technology being different today. Kids don't go outside like they used to when we were little, you know, like So, where would the abuse happen? It would have to be um it it seems like it would just kind of you know you would hope that it goes down but does it go down because of technology or the way things Yeah, I think it opens them up to different kinds of abuse. Um there's a lot of like online bullying and things like that. Um there are there my husband just saw an interview the Shawn Ryan podcast I think it was uh an an expert in um childhood abuse and he was describing how children today are being exploited. And so they you might think that your kid is safe cuz they're at home but they're also being exposed and exploited in ways that we couldn't have imagined when we were growing up. So your kid might be at home but they might be experiencing and you know this whole thing about sleepovers and stuff like that like we never let our kids sleep over and it's so interesting in some of these social media forums people talk about you know what were some of the weird things that you experienced as a kid when you did a sleepover and man the stuff that has that's coming out is crazy. So yeah, pe people need to really be vigilant about, you know, where their kids are for sure. Oh yeah, I just it just I'm I know we need to get on topic, but because I'm got us off all off topic, but that's just what I do. Um, if you think back, do you remember anything that was crazy that you did on a sleepover? I mean, that's where a lot of my abuse happened, right? Like Okay. Yeah. So mine Yeah. Yeah. That's that's where mine happened was a lot on sleepovers and stuff like that. And you know, as I got older, you know, I had a best friend. I used to sleep over her house all the time. Her family became like a second family to mine since my my home life was very uh dysfunctional. So, I was I had a best friend and I was at her family's house all the time. And her parents drank. Mine did not, but her parents drank. And so we would often get into her parents' liquor cabinet and water bottles down and stuff like that. And yeah, we were at the house, but we were we were drinking. We were drinking. Now, this is when you were Were you like that 8 n 10 years old? No. No. This is probably junior high or high school. I was like, okay, I'm not ever letting my kid go anywhere. All right. So, you know, about um you said you did try it at 8, nine or 10, right? Am I Yeah. So I so the reason why I give you sort of a time frame is because it was after my parents divorced but before my mother remarried. There was a little period of time there. And the this and this is the first drink that I ever remember taking. And Eric, I'll tell you, I remember that first drink like it was yesterday. The way the booze like burned my lips, the way it burned all the way down. But what was interesting is when that drink hit bottom, this warmth that spread through my whole body and there was like this juxaposition between it's like suddenly all my selfhatred and self-consciousness was lifted and all that was left was like this euphoric feeling. And it kind of makes me sad to think that at this young age I had so much self-hatred and self-consciousness and self-loathing already. Um but I did because of you know it was my parents divorce was really hard on me. You know little kids don't understand that it's not their fault and our parents weren't really educated like there's there wasn't the sort of information then like there is now. Like now people are taught how to communicate with their kids so that kids don't take on the responsibility of like the parents divorce cuz I think in the back of my mind there was always like if I had just been better maybe this wouldn't have happened you know you carried you carried some of that with you. Yeah. I learned from this um so I I in my in the podcast that I have I've been interviewing experts for a long time and I'll never forget this one guy. He was Dr. David Spiegel. He uh was like the chief medical I forget what his title was but for like 40 years he was in the psych department at Stanford. And I asked him why is it that children of divorce of uh abuse they have like this feeling like everything is their fault and he told me you know kids often feel like they're dirty they're bad they're like there's something wrong with them. It's like why do people a victim why do they take it on like that? And he told me something I will never forget which was it's easier to assume responsibil ability and feel guilty than it is to feel powerless. All right, say that again. It's easier to feel like it's your fault than it is to feel powerless. The feeling of powerless is so painful that people would rather assume that I did something wrong like I was in but that assumes control. It assumes I could have done something different. It could have been different but it was my fault that it wasn't different. And that's not even often a conscious thought. It's just some it's like a natural response. Natural response. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, it is very crazy. But it makes sense. That's why you kind of repeat it because I'm like, "Let me hear that again." Yeah. It's a self-p protection mechanism. H Yeah. Because it's easier to feel like it's easier to feel angry than it is sad, right? Like the self self-righteous anger everybody seems to Yeah. And a lot of And a lot of anger comes from being scared of something, you know? Yes. They say that anger is a secondary emotion that typically you have to feel sadness or something along those lines first. That's right. Yeah. All right. So, you're boozing at 8, nine or 10 going [laughter] in somebody's liquor cabinet. Yeah. Had that warmth that covered you um from the burn of alcohol. And I remember that burn, too. I remember. Do you remember what the You remember what it was? What What did you drink? Was it like a bottle? I don't. It's It's funny because my parents never drank, so I was never really familiar with the different kinds of booze. I just remember it was like a clear bottle with And it was dusty. like probably somebody, you know, probably they had like a dinner party or something and somebody left a bottle of booze. I don't even know what it was, but it was like a clear bottle and brown liquid is what I remember. Yeah. I remember my first um was uh it's called Canadian Hunter and they mixed it with Mountain Dew and these red solo cups and I had like two of them and I was dear obliterated. I mean, that was your first drink ever? Oh my god. The first drunk. The first drink I ever had was uh I I think my dad let me try some beer one time when he was with some friends. I just I kept nagging him. So, he let me try beer and a little bit of uh dip or tobacco dip. And so, not only was I like thought I was cool, but I was also puking my guts out from accidentally swallowing the tobacco. And so, you would think that would turn somebody off, right? But in our in our minds, you know, mine and yours from an an addicted standpoint, I don't know why that didn't turn us off. Like it was let's go again and see if we can make it better. Because for me, um I think back now, maybe it was like a connection I wanted to have with my father, you know, like I saw that. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Um and it's maybe it's different with guys and girls. Um but yeah, I just wanted to be kind of cool. I always wanted to hang out with an older crowd and and just fit in. Yeah. So, yeah. But keep keep it going. Te tell us um you know, did you keep going uh in in the drinking or did you shift gears as you went through middle school? Yeah. No. Well, it was funny because um that night I got really sick, right? Like you were talking about. It's like I got really sick and my older sister, she kind of cleaned me up and put me to bed and she didn't tell my mom. Years later, I asked her, "How come you didn't tell mom?" And she said, "Because I would have gotten in trouble." And so that kind of gives you a little insight into the dysfunction at our house. It was like you didn't take responsibility for your behavior and you could be held responsible for somebody else's, right? That was kind of a the beginning of this like ongoing pattern like the codependent alcoholic relationship that I had uh in my house. It was it was kind of um yeah but I you know I I obviously didn't become a daily drinker at you know 10 years old or whatever. Um but I it started this sort of um pattern of binge drinking. I wasn't a daily drinker but I was definitely a binge drinker. And I did drink in junior high. Like the only time I ever got in trouble in school was in junior high cuz I used to drink before school sometimes. I would [laughter] Yeah. I would uh so when my parents divorced um my mom and I did not get along very well. She was sort of like this rage ahaholic which was crazy because she um had these two alter egos. She was either really happy or really pissed and I felt like she saved the happy face for the outside world. And you know, as a as a mother and I have two I raised two boys, um I get how hard it is to like do your workday and then come home to like a messy house, that kind of a thing. And I was raised in sort of that latch key kid area era. So I would go to school and then let myself in. And it was interesting. My mother would expect the house to be clean by the time she got home, homework done, stuff like that. And I was just not that girl. My sister was the comp the good compliant child. I was not I was not that kid. So, do you remember what would make you drink in the morning before school? Like what says this is what I need to do or do you feel like that was just the addicted mind that was starting to take over? Yeah, it was definitely the addictive mind that started to take over. And where I was going with that story was that um when my parents divorced, I I didn't get along with mom, so I went to go live with dad, but I had to finish school the school year in my school district. So I went to my friend's [clears throat] house, the one that had all booze. Perfect. Yeah. So that's why I was drinking before school. I And for me, it was like doing something naughty. Like it was an escape. It was like in my mind I thought I was doing something fun and that's kind of what started the whole thing is I thought I was going to do something fun. Yeah, there is something too about like what you just said. It's just interesting that you brought that up. I'm sorry I'm adjusting this camera, but there's there's there's an um there's an attraction inside the addiction because it's the wrong thing to do. Yeah. Does that make sense? 100%. Yeah. I mean, there's something about being the bad kid or just maybe not being the bad kid, but I'm going to do this because I just to test the waters, I don't think I'll get caught and then you don't get caught. It's like the chase of that. Yeah, there is some truth to that. What you just said about being the bad kid. Um, you know, growing up at the church, I was always trying I was always begging God to fix me. Like, I was always I wanted to be the good girl. I just couldn't. I just couldn't do it. Well, I couldn't be good. I I just kept trying and failing to be good. Like, I wanted God to fix me. I wanted to be the good girl, but I couldn't be. I kept failing and I just gave up at some point. It's like me and God broke up. I decided I couldn't be good, so I was going to be good at being bad. It was like a total And I think what's sad about that is this really deep subconscious belief that I was bad, right? But I didn't know that I was carrying all this trauma. I was carrying a lot of trauma and didn't know it. Did you have a relationship with your dad after the divorce? You Oh, yeah. My dad was great. He Yeah. I had my [clears throat] My dad was great. He um set up a like he my I have an older sister and he would come like each of us had like our own date with dad every week, like our own one-on-one time with dad every week. He's a good dude. My dad was a good dude. Yeah. He was a he was a Gman. He uh he was like a a an a marine and then he worked for the government and he had a job where like I didn't know where he worked [laughter] like I just knew that he worked for the government. Okay. Yeah. But he was a good dude. He was super things happen. He's that guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's funny because he was a um very uh introverted guy. He was a very introverted guy. Very like you would think cuz he was a Marine he'd be like kind of hardcore and loud, but he was the opposite. He was very religious. He would tell me Bible stories and start blubbering. He like quick to cry and super tenderhearted. He was like the most compassionate. He was a little enabling to be honest, especially [laughter] towards at the end of my drinking when I'd be like, "Daddy, I'm broke. I need some money." And he he'd float me some cash to pay my car bills. [laughter] And I It was funny because I always had like three jobs. I had like this weird weird workcoholism thing. Ever since I was like 13, I've always had like three jobs. But, you know, when you're drinking and smoking weed every day, [laughter] you go broke quick. Yeah. I mean, and that's the balance. I mean, I don't want to pull from your story too much, but there's a huge uh balance that parents often lose sight of, and it's trying to find the balance between enablement and support. Yeah. Where they want to just take care of you because it's, you know, it's daddy's little girl or mama's little baby boy and they just want you to do well or they want to know that they're just checking the box that they're doing their job. And then sometimes they just get so lost in that they become an enabler and they don't even know it. But we know it because we can as addicts we usually get whatever we want if we try hard enough and we are not scared to ask. [laughter] No sir. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And it's so funny because the kind my mother was the ex polar opposite like she had such severe boundaries. You know she disowned me on a regular basis. you know, I'd ask her for help and [laughter] I was like, "Absolutely not." You know, there was a couple times when she would like literally hang up on me. Like she wasn't having it, you know, and then I Well, and that's good, too. I mean, I know it sounds mean, but it was she probably can read between a line. You said she was from where again? She was from Mexico City. Yeah. So, she don't play. No, she didn't play. You think that she knew what was going on with you? Any idea? Um, yes and no. Yes and no. like I hid it from her in the beginning. She just saw me as like a I don't know how she saw me, but I was a troubled young woman. And uh yeah, she didn't know what to do with me. Like even grow growing up as like, you know, she kind of had these two alter egos. They're really happy and but I I had a couple alter egos, too. you know, it was either Wimpy Wendy or badass Betsy because I was either crying or fighting, [laughter] [gasps] you know, and and uh yeah, she she and I were like oil and water when I was young. So, I didn't spend a lot of time with her, so there was, you know, she didn't really see me in action, so to speak. I I left home when I was 17, so she didn't see she didn't see a lot of it. I remember you said on um one of our our pre-in call um you you got you found soiety pretty early. I did. I I kind of crashed and burned early. I was 25 by the time I got sober, but it took me 2 years of moderating before I came to the conclusion that I need to practice abstinence. Mhm. So between the first drink and the last one, you know, I had what I would call a series of episodes, right? Like waking up the next morning and being like, what was that all about? Like not having a clo like you know these two alter egos that I had just mentioned. They were it was really strange for me. It was like I go out with the intention of having a good time, but sometimes like all my bottled emotions would just explode when I was drinking. And it either came out in anger or in sadness. And I just didn't I just didn't act like normal people when I drank. Like as soon as I drank like more. Yeah. I just wanted more. Drank to get drunk. I didn't drink to socialize. Yeah. It flipped a switch in my brain and I just was really excessive. I was also a big pot smoker. I smoked non-addictive marijuana every day for like 10 [laughter] years. I love my pot, too. Um, so if if you were to go back, Miss Allen, and look at, you know, that last, well, you said you were, you know, those different moments of sobriety, but that that last uh hurrah, if you will, of six months or a year, you know, tell tell these listeners that'll listen to your this show and they they're already followers of of yours or maybe they're following me or maybe hearing this for the first time, what what was the um what was some of the darkest Like what was rock bottom for you? Was there a rock bottom? Yeah, I felt like I skipped along rock bottom for a while to be perfectly honest. I mean the the it got really dark for me. I I remember I was just so lonely and uh desperate for love. I thought so I thought there were two things that were going to save me. I thought it was either love or money, right? I was I was chasing the uh night on the night and shining armor type of thing. And interestingly enough, it was love that saved me, but it didn't show up the way I thought it would. You know, the way I thought it would is that I would find love and that I would then everything would be okay. It's sort of like this idea that something out there is going to fix something in here. And I I sort of fell into like that fairy tale like if I could just fall in love then everything would be okay. But I was so broken and had such low self-esteem that I really couldn't um like I didn't want anyone that would have me. Like the whole nice guy thing is an interesting dynamic. You know, they say that nice guys finish last and last. Yeah. And I I feel like there's a reason for that. Like, you know, as a woman, I felt like I was always told that there was I needed to fix something. Like, you go you stand at the at the cash register at the grocery store and all the magazines are like, you know, get slimmer thighs, do this, do that. Like, it's all it's all messages of you're not okay the way you are. You need to be different. Right. For guys, it's a little different. I didn't see the magazines like that. I saw the candy. Just wanted all the candy at the checkout. I know [laughter] what you're saying. Yeah. Right? Like it's interesting all these messages that we get and I feel like I feel bad for the young women today cuz the standards and men too, right? The standards are so uh distorted and unrealistic. But you know, I just I didn't like who I was. I had all this childhood trauma. I hated who I was. And you know, I would meet a nice guy and I'd be like, "Ew, what's wrong with you?" Like, and I didn't wasn't really aware that it's like, "I can't stand who I am. Why would you like me? you must you must not be good enough if you like me cuz I'm so bad. Right? This is all sort of like playing subconsciously in the back of my mind. It's like a woman that has really high self-esteem is able to receive that kind of love and acceptance, but if I don't accept me, then I'm going to attract other people that don't accept me. And so that's and so I had a real fear of intimacy and sought out relationships like the the kinds that you know seeking out people who weren't ever going to commit to me that kind of a thing. Like really no um no real relationship until sobriety or did you meet your husband [laughter] any addiction? Yeah. No, no. We uh we [clears throat] got together when I was five months sober and he was probably five or six years sober. [laughter] All right, let's talk about that because people are going to hear this and they're going to say, "Okay, is it okay for me to date that first year in or how soon can I date?" So, this is an opportunity for you to give some advice. I would say so I've been sober for 31 years. I have spent Congratulations, M. Thank you. Yeah. 31 years and seven months is what my app tells me. But the um so and I've spent a lot of time in 12step recovery communities and I've over the last three decades I've seen a lot of people come and go and you you witness firsthand lots of different scenarios. And I would say that uh that he and I are an outlier that it's it's not very common that people in recovery stay together. And I attribute our longevity to our commitment to practice. You know, 12 in the parliament of 12step, the fourth step is a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves is how they say it. And he and I early on began this practice of doing inventories on ourselves. So whenever we would have an argument or something or a disagreement, um he would go off with the fellas and work on himself. I would go off with my sponsor and my girls and work on myself. And when we came back together, we were both ready to sort of own our part and make amends and change our behavior. And so that's a practice that has helped us to stay together for so long. So we So you still had um because I think we we did discuss this. You and I have we have and this is this is fine. We we have our own views of 12step programs and AA today and things like that. But you would say uh if someone's listening to this and they are five months in um I'm not going to say these are your words, but as long as you do what do you feel like it's okay for someone to date in recovery that early on? Well, so so here's the thing. I I think it's your sponsor. I think it's a bad idea to be perfectly honest. They they they say that you should wait a year because what you're attracted to when you're sick will repel you when you're healthy is sort of like the overarching guidance, right? Because you change and evolve. And I I don't know why, but he and I just fit together from day one. Like we were just like peas and carrots, as they say. Yeah. And uh and so we are we are definitely an outlier. However, we were rigorous about putting our program, our sobriety first. [clears throat] And I feel like, excuse me, you're good. I feel like that's what has contributed to the not just the longevity, but the quality of our relationship. Like [snorts] to this day, he is my favorite person. A [laughter] Yeah. He's sweet. I mean, I don't mean like a but like Oh, that's really Yeah. No, he is definitely the best person I know. He's he's a really incredible person. And listen, um we both have the same goal, which is my happiness. So, that works out well for me. Mhm. [laughter] If you think back, and you may remember, how far along in your step work were you at that at that amount of time? Oh, that's a good question. Do you think you had made it to the maintenance step? It's like 10, 11, and 12. Do you think you'd made it? I'm trying to figure I don't remember how far and how fast I went through my steps. I know that it's you're supposed to try to go through it, you know, all 12 and tw in in 12 months, but some people go quicker, so I didn't know if you went a little quicker or not. I don't know. I didn't go I didn't get that far. Um I did have really good sponsorship and support, but uh No, I wasn't that far along. I honestly couldn't tell you. It's been so long. I couldn't tell you how far along I was when he and I started dating. That's a good question. But it was [clears throat] it was utilizing the steps are funny because you're kind of doing them all all at the same time. Mhm. Right. Like you're you're always practicing all of the steps, but going through the steps in a pragmatic way as outlined in the literature. Mhm. That does take a little bit of time. Mhm. It does. And I was only 5 months sober and we started dating. So I couldn't have been that far along. You know, I remember dating in in recovery and um I I you did make a good point a minute ago. We we are we find ourselves to become different people. Um my first wife and I we divorced in my recovery and it was because I was a different guy. I wasn't the guy she um she she fell in love with because you know we did a lot together. But it wasn't all healthy and that's okay. uh we're friends now and I've talked about her on my podcast before. Um but then we do we as people in recovery, you know, we're we're fixing um or repairing the bridges that we burned from from the past and the the the trail we've blazed, however you want to put it. And so we we do become these different people. The person you are now at 30 something years in sobriety is completely different than what you were at maybe five years. So, we're continuous continuously changing and growing. And I just I think people need to hear that. Like, don't def people want this to go so quick. Like, they just want to feel better so fast. I was watching a girl on TikTok last night who's just hit like 18 months. And sorry, I got an eyelash. Um, [snorts] and she was crying on her TikTok and it was because she's like, I just I'm still not happy. I'm I'm still sad. I have a I have a child. I'm seeing this new person. and she was naming all these things, but she was she was actually naming good things that were going on, you know, but she just she hadn't made it to that point yet to where she just realized that it's going to continue to get better. I I sent her a message. I'm like, I'm I'm proud of you for putting that out there, but just know that you're better than you were. Um because we're all going to be in process. I would have to challenge that in the sense that we have moments of happiness that we so quickly bypass. Mhm. It's so easy to latch on to the pain, right? And the pain feels heavier than the joy obviously, right? Like joy feels light and but it it can be fleeting. So the trick is to have a mindfulness practice so you can notice when things are going well. And the truth of the matter is there are a thousand things that go right every single day. Mhm. Right. It's like I can blink my eyes. I can still talk. I got all my teeth. It's like I can smell things. It's like, you know what I'm saying? You picking on me cuz I'm from Georgia. Well, you look like you got all your teeth or the one of them. [laughter] I know. You have a nice smile. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like I know what you mean. I mean, there's a thousand things that go right and we don't give it any weight because we are so focused. Here's the thing. Whatever we focus on expands. So if you're focused on your if you're solely focused on your pain, then it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And I and I feel for a lot of people in recovery cuz we are sort of trained to we need to identify what the problems are so we can fix them. And but then we go well well why am I like this? Where did this come from? Is it do I have a mother wound? Is it abandonment? Is it do I have less than? It's it's so easy to get lost in the problem and forget to think about like what's working, right? That's why we utilize tools like gratitude, right? Like November is gratitude month. And so a lot of people are really focused on a gratitude practice. I still at 31 years do a gratitude list nearly every day. And I trade lists with like six people. [clears throat] like I send them mine and they send me theirs, but just like a constant focus on what's working. What happens is like your brain will start to develop patterns based on how you focus your attention. And it's so interesting. Um there's a book called what happened to you, which is a take on what's wrong with you, right? And we think about what happened to you. It's like early childhood experiences, uh, especially if they're traumatic, will shape your neurology so that you get triggered to go into fight, flight, or freeze by certain experiences that feel familiar. Like basic, Have you ever had I'm sure you have had a reaction that was disproportionate to the situation like you overreact for Oh, god. Yeah. I mean, you make a gratitude list every day. I overreact every day over. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really. Uh, yeah. I mean, totally. I mean, I've got I've got kids that are still young. So, I mean, a helicopter parent, I overreact sometimes. Yeah. So, they say that if a reaction is hysterical, it's historical. That we're not actually responding to what's happening in the moment, we are happening to we are responding to unresolved pain that we haven't um processed to resolution. Right? I think of it like as a soul bruise. If I had a parent like my as much as I loved my father, he was always playing devil's advocate, he was kind of condescending. And so anytime I get a whiff of that in my adult life, like if like that left a soul bruise on me and so anytime I brush up against something that feels familiar, I tend to overreact to that because it's unresolved pain from when I was young, right? It's it's pain that hasn't healed yet. So, if you had come across the girl that I'm talking about on TikTok last night, because I'm going to reach back out to her and tell her what you said, um, you would you would encourage her today if you would if you'd have saw her last night to make a a gratitude list. Is that what I just heard? Not just one, but every day at least five things every single day. And the format to me is important. I always say I am grateful and then I leave a space, right? But there's something really powerful about the phrase I am. Whatever comes after I am is really creative and powerful. It's it it leads to identity, right? A lot of recovery is about recovering our whole selves, the good and the bad, right? It it's about reshaping. Like I had an identity of party girl, right? And when I let that go, I had to replace it with something else, right? and and so focusing on my attributes, not not things about me that aren't tied to how I look or what I do. Uh so attributes like I'm persistent, I'm kind. Um I appreciate humor. Um do you know what I'm saying? So it's like attributes. So we we so will often focus on character defects and those are important because we need to solve for that. You need to know where like I'm incredibly uh self-centered. Aren't we all? Yes. Most of us are. But if I know this, then when I'm in a relationship with somebody else, I can remember to be mindful to, you know, when I talk to somebody, I ask I usually ask at least a couple of follow-up questions so that they feel like I'm so that I'm engaged, right? I'm not just waiting for my turn to speak. I offer a couple I show some curiosity and some interest in somebody else's life. And so people don't experience me as selfish and self-centered like they used to. That's really good. Yeah. But that to to the point of that that gal, it's like yeah, we do we do need to practice uh gratitude. We need to actively start looking for the good in life because we have this negativity bias where we're always looking for the problems to solve. Yeah. I think that's where she was at last night. She had started telling herself she has bipolar. You know, she was bipolar and Well, she might be. Yeah. And she might be I mean but you know um bipolar like there are there are a lot of us with uh coexisting conditions like mental illness like bipolar um borderline personality depression and anxiety. I I uh land on the anxiety side. I don't typically get depressed. I I get super anxious which you know is my whole coping strategy is workcoholism. So that's kind of where I go with it is the doing I cover up the anxiety. It's and both are sort of rooted in this I'm not safe, you know, and so we need to figure out, you know, ways that we can battle those thoughts with like mindfulness and gratitude practices and exercise and all that stuff. Yeah, I'm the exact same way. I have to stay busy. My my when I wake up, my mind is on and sometimes my mind is turned on before I even wake up. It's like it's already going. Same. Um, and and it's and it's it's a great thing and it's it's it's a I worry about what I'm going to do when I get older. Like, will I one day just be able to enjoy life, you know? I know that sounds super dumb or deep, whatever, but like everybody just not work or, you know, want to do something like this. This whole thing came from, you know, wanting to write a book. I wrote a book and then I started a nonprofit and then you have this podcast and you have these classes and it's just evol. My wife and even even said like where does this end? I'm like I don't want it to end. I wanted to give it away one day but you know where does I think she's not talking about recovery bound ending. She's like when will you like figure out that you can now release yourself of this and I don't know if I want to do that. It's that seems more scary to me than thought of a relapse. Yeah. So you and I are cut from the same cloth. You know we call this like the strivevers dilemma. You know is that a real thing? So we striveors dilemma dilemma. Yeah. Yeah, it was self-help junkies. I actually started another podcast called self-help junkie because it was like just like this constant striving for improvement. You know, that can be another form of self- abuse cuz you're never really you can never arrive. There's never a completion date. There's never satisfaction. There's never an experience of achievement. There's no receiving, right? It's just crazy. It's just constant. Um and it's rooted in self- avoidance. And so here's the trick. The deal is is you will you and I will always be active and creative. But instead of drawing from the dirty fuel source of I'm going to be busy and achieve so that I can feel better about myself that's that's coming from a place of not good enough to switching to a an infinite energy source which is that comes from love and creativity and sharing and giving and service like that is a fuel source that's clean and it's renewable and it goes forever. But this dirty fuel source of like I don't feel like I'm good enough so I need to achieve so that I could be okay like that is that leads to burnout, disappointment. It leads to all bad things which I'm very familiar with even in recovery. Yeah, me too. Um so we'll never stop but the uh but the point isn't to be done. It's to create from a place of inspiration and engagement and joy. And I I'm so creative. And it's not like like I can make a movie creative. It's like our brains are new just like we're new. Like these ideas that come like I throw everything at the wall, Miss Allen. Like I don't care how dumb it seems or how crazy it sounds. Like I'm going to throw it at wall. I don't care if it sticks or not. But if it sticks, great. You know what I mean? But it is it's that it's every little thing that does. I don't know why I'm looking at wall like I threw something at it. But everything that will stick to it is just that sense of satisfaction. I had an article come out in USA Today yesterday. This little red Oh, congratulations. Isn't that fantastic? It [clears throat] really is. Check the box though. That was yesterday. It's like, okay, what can I do now? Like what's next? You know what I mean? So, it's every one of these little boxes we check, it's like just mashing the gas just a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah. We are cut from the same cloth. We should start a club. Um we you and I both when we were talking prior to this this conversation you know interactive um we were talking about our views of um AA I was telling you mine I felt like we were kind of the same and we don't have to be the same. That's the beauty in this is that recovery for for some people is is going to be found in different ways. For me I had to go to treatment. For you it was you know stumbles and then you finally got it at 25 or whatever. Um because I don't remember you saying that you went to treatment, right? I didn't I didn't know that that was a thing. I I ended and I didn't have any money, so I went to 12step meetings. 12step meetings. And I love a 12step meeting. I've I went the first few years. Um and I want to be careful how I say this because I don't want to offend anybody. Um it's just just my point of view. Um I went to 12step meetings. I did the AA thing, but I just it's like mashing that gas pedal. I had to see what was next. Um, not that this wasn't working or that wasn't working, but I was kind of challenging like what that higher power meant. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and for me, uh, things kind of catapulted when I decided to experiencing um, a church service and going to church and things like that. That that worked for me, but I'm not saying that works for everyone. But I [clears throat] push people to 12step meetings. I think that's a great place to start or at least a place to try because some some people will they just go to 12step meetings like you're talking about. Some people have no idea what they're doing and they they they try to just uh white knuckle it. Some people go to recovery centers. Some people go to treatment IOP. There's all these different ways to go about it. Um did you do the 12 steps and do you still do 12step meetings today? Um, or did you you kind of do a hybrid of multiple things to keep to what got you to to stay sober for 31 years? And how do you do that today? I always did all the things like I'm I I joke around that I'm recovery promiscuous cuz I will try all the things like just like I tried all the drugs like I try all the recovery. Um, 12step has always been my foundation and I was lucky enough to be in an area where there was like 800 meetings a week. Wow. And I didn't have any friends when I first got sober. I had sort of alienated everybody and I was young and so, you know, my then boyfriend was in it, too. And, you know, he would go to men's meetings, I'd go to women's meetings, we'd get invited. It became our life. It became our community. And you know, I became a good speaker cuz I got called on to speak all the time and I um developed all these friendships and it would be a place where I could go I could see all my friends. I get some hugs. I get to share. I get to be of service. I had standing in my community over a period of time. Um it was it was a place I just got so much out of the meetings. But I just want to make a clear distinction here that meetings and the program are two separate things. Okay, explain that. Meetings of where you go to talk to people, hear their experiences. They say hope, the anacronym of hope is hearing other people's experiences, right? And I would go there to hear other people's experiences, how they handled challenging situations throughout their life. Like people weren't talking about booths. They would tell their story, but they were talking about how they were living sober, right? And I went to meetings where there was really good highquality sobriety, right? I I I would go to the bougie side of town and hang out with the doctors and lawyers and executives and, you know, nurses and professionals and like that. Those were my people. I I really And I would hear all their stories and how they were handling like the challenges of their life. And so and it was interest what's interesting about meetings and church they they kind of both do the same thing in the sense that we we go over the same material over and over again because um we need to be reminded of what we already know right and so like that's you know being in a community of people who practice spiritual principles and things like that it's good to be refreshed. There's a lot of information that we need to be reminded of all the time. different information comes into play at different points in your life and um and so I think both those things and so that's kind of like how church is but you know it's community it's fellowship it's service it's confession it's um playground playmates play habits is sometimes yeah it's humility it's like all that stuff and um so that's what the fellowship part is for the steps are the program and so I think people go to an AE meeting or two and the people there are dicks And they're can I I don't know if I can say that but the people are unkind. You want [laughter] say whatever you want. I go to meetings let loose and be as you don't worry about what what comes out your mouth. Just say it. Yeah. Yeah. So you go to some meetings and people are [  ] right? And and if somebody who's new goes to a meeting and they're treated unkind by some people who are sick, right? Like listen to this not the hot bed of mental health, right? You go to these meetings, people are sick. [laughter] Some are sooner than others, but hopefully there's a few healthy people there with some good recovery that are into, you know, paying it forward or [clears throat] giving back and stuff. And so, you meet some good people. Um, but and I guess that happens at church, too. It doesn't Wherever you go there, they are, but there's good people there, too. And but that what I'm saying is that um the program is the steps. And so, sometimes people go to meeting that couple and they and they don't like there there's three big trigger words. People don't like the word uh God. They don't like the word powerless and they don't like the word alcoholic, right? And what I would just submit for your consideration that these are just words. And who gets to decide what these things mean? We do. But we often think we we've all I've heard it said that if you have a problem with God, you probably have a problem with somebody else's God. I I certainly did. Like I grew up in the church, but me, like I told you, like me and God broke up because I couldn't be perfect. And um Have you and God got back together? We did. I I met this gal and they were talking about God and I was like, "If this is what this is, I'm not going to be able to do it." And she's like, "What are you talking about? Like this God thing?" And and she's like, "Oh, no, no, no. That's not even a thing." She's get out a piece of paper on one side, write down all the attributes that you would want God to have just for funsies, just pretend that you can choose. So, it was like God is loving, God is powerful, omniresent, omnipotent. I'm the favorite. Obviously, you know that um those are all the good attributes of God. And then she said, "Okay, on the other side, list all the things you wouldn't want God to be." And I was like, "Well, punishing, judgmental, condemning, like, you know, just all these things." And she was like, "Are you done?" So, I finished my list. I handed it to her. She ripped it in half and she gave me the good sign. She's like, "This is what we're going to start with." And I was like, "That's it." She's like, "That's it." I was like, "Oh [clears throat] my gosh." So that was like she did that to you. That was my path back to God. That was my She gave me God. 12step gave me God back in a way that made sense to me. What What year in your recovery did that happen? Do you remember? Dude, that was like first 30 days probably. Okay. I just happened to I I so people at meetings are like translators. They say this is how I understand it. This is what worked for me and I was told to talk to the people who had what I wanted. Right? Like if I wanted a healthy relationship, talk to someone who has a healthy relationship. If I wanted if I wanted to be uh successful in business, talk to someone who's successful in business, right? Don't take advice from people who don't have what you want is kind of what I was taught. So that's where the fellowship comes in handy. But that is not that is not the program. The program is actually taking action to do the the steps are largely a writing exercise. And so it it was me, you know, meeting with my sponsor every week. She'd give me homework. I would go home and I would do the reading. I would do the writing exercises. And she and I would meet together and we we would talk it out. And the reason I wrote a book called the 12step guide for skeptics is because I was a skeptic and was bumping up against all these things that I thought were showstoppers. And she's like, "No, that's not a thing. There's a there's a path around every obstacle." And and because she made it accessible to me, I experienced this amazing transformation. So that's that's But I'm I'm not like that's the only thing that you have to do. I'm not saying you have to do that for the rest of your life. I'm not saying you'll get loaded if you leave. Um I'm not saying you'll stay sober if you stay. I'm just saying it's a worthy endeavor to do this stuff. That's all. And everything else is gravy to me. I totally agree. I had experience um different um places where these 12step meetings happened. It had different names. I don't remember the names, but you're absolutely right. I had to work the program. It didn't matter who was in the room, but their stories mattered. I That's why I started this podcast, Miss Allen, is everybody deserves to be able to tell their story, whether an [  ] or not. You know, it's like you have the freedom to share what happened and what's working for you. And you know, because some sometimes I would go to these meetings and these people would just say some of the stupid stupidest stuff. I love it. Sometimes it made sense and I was like, "Oh, that was really good, you know, time for time time things I must earn or, you know, I would uh I was allergic to alcohol. I'd break out in handcuffs. If I heard that one more time in a meeting, I was going to punch [laughter] somebody. But then there was, you know, sometimes every meeting I went to, I absolutely needed to hear something that came from it. Yeah. Um I have a I have a love for 12 steps, but also have a deeper love for um just this relationship I have with God and how that just continues to grow. Um, yeah. When I found when I found um Sorry, my wife just called, so I just need to turn that off. Um, hey babe, I'm doing a podcast right now. Can I call you right back? I'm doing a podcast right now. Let me call [laughter] you right back. Bye. Uh, the producer say that off. Here's what's funny is that I told her on the phone earlier, I'm doing a podcast between like 4 and 5 and it is uh 4:59. [laughter] gotta love her. Um the the I was talking about the meetings though, like I took something away from every one of them that I went to, but when I got invited to church, um and I'm not pushing this on on anybody, but it just it's what worked for me. I didn't have a relationship I didn't go to church when I was younger. I didn't have a relationship with Christ. I didn't I just didn't have any of that. It it it completely freaked me out. So if you Jesus jked me or tried to introduce me to him in the beginning um I wouldn't have went out or wanted to understand him more like you know when you guys met at five months like it was that was too much for me. I had been dealt a divorce. Um I had been dealt full custody of two little boys. One was still in diapers. And so not only was I was supposed to be selfish for myself and this new sobriety thing. Um I had a failed marriage and I'm trying to be responsible for two other human beings too. You know I've said this before. I'm a really good dad. I'm a horrible mom, you know. So, we we lived off Pop-Tarts, Mexican food, and and and clean lingerie on Sundays, [laughter] but we made it. And and and they're fine, you know. They're they're, you know, kind of grown now. One's 18 and one's about to be 17 next month. And if it and the reason I give the shout out to a if it wasn't for that, if it wasn't for the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing now. That doesn't mean I've turned my back on it. I've just challenged it and I want to go a little bit farther in that higher power sense. Um, I should still go to meetings. I don't think you could do both. You could do both. I I still go to meetings a few times a week and I do a tiny private little women's meeting, but you can you can absolutely do both. There was there was a sense of giving back, like being there for the new person. Like I was telling somebody I had a period of time where I was like, I think I'm done with this. I think I'm done. And somebody said, "Well, it was a good thing AA was there for you when you needed to get sober." And I was like, "Oh, that kind of hurt." Yeah. Like I I I got mine. I got mine. Bye. Like, oo, ouch. I don't want to be that girl either. I would like to think that, you know, you and I have given back because I want to talk about your book real quick. Like, we've written these books. I've got a book and we have these platforms now, this podcast, and that's our way of helping the new person, too, right? Um, but yes, I I openly admit I need to go back to some meetings. Um, I mean, you could I mean, there's there's two reasons to go to a meeting, and it's to uh be reminded of information that you already know, and to be of service to others, even if it's just listening to the person who needs to say the same thing that they've said a hundred times before. Yeah. I did recently go on a a cruise with my family back over the summer and I don't know why but they had um these private AA meetings on the cruise. Yeah. I went I went in one every day. Oh, you did? Yeah. And I met some fantastic people. Yeah. They were all just on vacation and it was like one lady like she lives on a cruise ship. with her and her husband cruise all the time and and one lady had like I think she had 50 years in recovery and and soy and it was and there was one guy that was there celebrating a a birthday milestone like two years and so it was just nice. I mean it was it was nice. I made sure I made an effort to to do that. Um I do want to talk about your book. Um um tell tell us what led to that and um and how can we get our hands on it? We can get it on Amazon. Um, and and really the reason that I wrote it is because I just felt like this burning need to kind of set the record straight because there is a lot of uh misinformation out there. There's a lot of context and perspective that's missing when people talk about. So, it's this is a funny dynamic. So, it's part of the traditions that you don't talk about your membership at the level of press, radio, and film. And I kind of break that, you know, I I do not ask you that. Yeah, it's it's a thin veil. It's a thin veil. I But um times are different now. Like and their their public relations policy is based on attraction, not promotion. But what happens is sometimes people go to meetings, they have a bad experience, they don't know that meetings are different than the program. And so they say, "I tried AA and here's all the reasons why it didn't work for me." And so that is a common thing that I've seen is people and and there's all kinds of different modalities that have sprung up all over the place because there a lot of people are like, "This didn't work for me." And so there's all these different modalities out there. And I'm like, but when I ask why, like over the So I've been doing the podcast 9 and a half years. We're on episode 406. And I typically ask people, thank you. Um, you know, in the preach interview, it's like, have you have you tried the 12 steps? Because I need to be sensitive to the anonymity thing. So, I want to be sure to be sensitive around that. And when people say no, I can't help myself. I have to ask why. Well, why not? I have yet to hear a valid reason not to do the steps. There's no I have not yet heard a valid reason not to do it. I understand why people are so deeply challenged, you know, um but in this day and age of online meetings and all that stuff, there's really no reason not to do the steps to find, you know, go to a meeting, find a sponsor, and work the steps. There really is no I have not. And that really pisses people off, but I'm going to tell you, the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. This feeling of anger is um a sign that your limiting beliefs are being challenged. It's a limiting belief to say something doesn't work for me, right? When it works for other people and and so what is the belief there? And so I encourage people to sort of lean in lean into the triggers, lean into the anger, and see if you can get to what's underneath that. So, you're saying if if everyone were to try that I just want to make sure I heard that right. You're saying that if everyone were to try the steps and put everything else aside that they would find sobriety. No. No. Okay. Say that again then. I'm saying the 12 steps are a worthy endeavor for sure because it can be such a transformational process, right? So, the steps themselves are really transformational process. It doesn't guarantee sobriety because people stop doing the things that help them stay well. Yeah. So, it's it's do you know what I'm saying? So, it's like it's sort of like you wouldn't eat one salad and expect to stay healthy forever. You wouldn't go to the gym once and think that you would be able to maintain. So, it's it's like your sobriety is something that needs to be maintained and fed and nurtured just like your body, right? Like it's the same. It's it's just like that. And so you can do the 12 steps and then go back to your old ways and which will typically end in a relapse. You're right. I've seen people try to do that and they walk, [snorts] you know, back through the doors or think they can just do one or the other, you know, well, I, you know, pills weren't my thing, so I'm going to take these painkillers and and I just won't drink with them this time. Or, you know, drinking only was my thing, so I'm going to be um you know maybe smoke pot or something like that and and maybe that's fine for I mean I have met people who I used to work for this company um and I was a I was a sales technology sales executive and you know some of the people that I worked with um had uh drug addiction issues and you know I'm I'm thinking specifically of this group of women who were incarcerated due to drug use and when they were released they released to this program where that allowed them to work as inside sales reps for this company and we'd get together for like sales kickoff or sales meetings or whatever and they would drink normally like I never I never witnessed a problem but they but they had severe drug issues and they didn't have alcohol issues and listen the only that's so interesting to me I know it's I do not get it I don't get it because I I just wasn't like that but um here's the thing after 31 years of sobriety the Only thing I know for sure, Eric, is that I don't know what's right for anyone else. I can tell you what I've seen. I can make suggestions, but at the end of the day, everybody's different. Like, I know that there are some people I have clients who are super high functioning and high level. I have a few I have a few CEOs who um are high functioning alcoholic and they're kind of the slipperiest ones cuz they have all the evidence that they're successful, that they don't they're not that bad yet. Mhm. But they do end up, you know, usually they come to the conclusion that they can't drink. But I just don't know what's I'm I'm happy to meet people where they're at. I just don't know what's right for like some people just need to learn how to moderate. And some people can do that, which is not within my experience. Not me. I mean, if as soon as I got enough liquid courage in me, we'll do whatever you want to do. Yeah. Like I'll go wherever you want to go. I'll do whatever [laughter] you want to do. We'll snort whatever you want to snort. I mean, really, I did [clears throat] not care. the the drinking is what led to a lot of it. The the drinking was my gateway. Like people say weed's a gateway and all that. That's weed's not a gateway. And that's just me talking. Um it wasn't for me. Um alcohol was weed is like a couch off of Yeah. Um but I did I kind of detoured from from the book. Tell me what's in the book. Um we can get it on Amazon. And what prompted you to write the book? So just come just hearing all these misconceptions about what 12step is and what it's not. Right? So I just kind of wanted and I'm not looking at this through rosecolored glasses like so the way I structured the book is like here are some foundational things you need to know like meetings and program. Those are two separate things. There's different kinds of meetings. There's meetings where you can go to share. There's women's meetings, men's meetings. There's speaker meetings where you can just show up and listen. There's all kinds of meetings. I don't know that everybody knows that um meetings are like churches. Like not you won't like every you won't like every church. You're not going to like every meeting. You know, the point is is to keep going until you find one that fits for you. That's that's kind of the overarching principle. Um but in the book is structured in the sense like here are all the major um obstacles that I commonly hear of. You know, people are mean. Um I don't like the relig it's it's religious. It's not religious, it's spiritual. There is a difference and a lot of people don't know that. I didn't I didn't know that. Um and and um redefining terms like that is what will help you sort of get past things like God, powerless, alcoholic. Like you can redefine those words so they're empowering to you or you don't have to use them at all. Like I don't Some people are like I feel like alcoholic is a shame label and I'm cool. Don't use it then. Mhm. Problem solved. next, you know, you got to keep it moving. And and so in the book, I address all like a is a cult or um I don't know. So all the things that I've heard over the years about reasons why people don't go, I just meet those issues head on. Like let's just talk about it. Let's deal with it head on. And here's a way around that obstacle so that you can at the end of the day I'm hoping that people get the spiritual experiences, the transformation that comes from a process and so that you can achieve sobriety but not just sobriety but start thriving in your life based on you know uh principles like honesty, integrity, service, all humility um all those things. I'm really just trying to make it accessible and I'm really meeting all the obstacles head on and just I'm not interested in fighting with anybody. Like if you're just so like close-minded, you're like, "No way." I think God bless you, there's a bazillion ways to get sober, right? No, I I agree with you 100%. I've I've often used um that same example like you have to you have to try it and find the one that works for you. It's kind of like going to a church or even a gym. Like if everybody Yeah. was able to work out at Gold's Gym and that was the only thing available. And I'm not getting a promo to Gold's Gym. I'm just saying that everybody would go there, you know, if it worked. So, you have to you have to, you know, be willing to go around and find out which one works for you. I believe you mentioned the different kinds of meetings. I love speaker meetings. I love hearing other people's stories and I love the, you know, the regular [clears throat] circle meetings, topic discussion. Yeah. discussion, you know, uh uh chapter um discussion, book discussion, uh step discussion, all of that. It it it was great. But I really really enjoyed speaker meetings, too, because you would talk you talked about these different meetings you went to with doctors and the lawyers or whoever. And all these people were successful. They had these different levels of su what was success to them. Um, and they were functioning human beings that didn't just were broke every day or, you know, I'm just comparing myself to them. Like, I wanted to be like those people I was hearing from. I didn't care if they were male or female, black or white or any of that kind of stuff. I just wanted what they had. Like, yeah, I wanted what they had. Like, I wanted the drugs I was chasing. Like, I wanted that drug or I wanted that drink. Now, I wanted to be like them. Yeah. Um, and you get that from these different meetings. Um, I I don't know if I if I've sent you a copy of my book yet, and I'd love for you to send me a copy of yours. Um, I wrote Marriage After Addiction because I talked about divorce. Like, you've you you were so blessed that your your marriage worked out. Not every marriage works out. But, um, for those that are going to try to make it work out, you know, I remember when I got out of treatment, Miss Allen, there was nothing for my spouse. There were, you know, there was um to the wives and then there was um Alanon, but that was like we talked about all these different ways that you get it. Well, they the spouses only have those two ways and you remove just that one because there wasn't a chapter to the husbands. Um so that's just Allanon. And so I wrote the book Marriage After Addiction, thinking about the supportive spouse and how they walk along in recovery with us. Mhm. Um, so I'd love to send you and your husband a copy of that so you have it. Not that you need it, but just it's exactly what you said is saying the same thing over and over again. Um, and that's what it is. It's some of the stuff you already know, but not everybody does. It's very practical. Um, and it just kind of challenge you on in some ways. It's written as a workbook. You guys can have fun with it. I'd love for you to just at least just read through it and and I would love to hear what your thoughts are on it at 30 something years in recovery. Absolutely. Yeah. Know it'd be my honor to to take a look and give it a shot. I love a [snorts] workbook. I'm obsessed. Do you? Well, sucker. It's [laughter] of just pure joy. Just joy. Um, listen, Miss Allen, I want to say thank you so much for taking time on on not only Thanksgiving week. I This will come out in a few weeks, but it's Thanksgiving week. You got big plans for Thanksgiving? Huge plans. My So, I live in Idaho. I'm from California and my brother is coming out with his wife, his beautiful wife, and his adorable kids. And so, I'm, you know, he's only been here once and they've never been here. So I'm super excited to spend the holiday with them. You're cooking super. My husband, he's the cook and the families. So he's obsessed with the a traditional like So he will be he starts cooking tomorrow actually. What are you guys having? Are y'all doing like the traditional turkey? Yeah. And we're and we're doing a ham, too. We're doing both because we have all these people coming. So we'll do the the turkey. We'll have ham. We'll do all the traditional side dishes. Yeah. It'll be fun. In the south we deep fry turkey. You ever heard of deep fried turkey? Oh, heck yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds amazing. Kentucky if you get down to Kentucky. But yeah, they they make big pots when you put peanut oil in it and you put these birds in it. And that's the only way I'll eat turkey. I'm not a big turkey fan. So, we'll do ham and turkey maybe. But sometimes we do steak and just Yeah, we're actually picking up half a cow tomorrow morning. So, [laughter] God. Yeah. How many kids y'all got? Just two. Oh, wow. Well, I do want to say, hey, thank you so much for um spending some time with me on Riverside and and recording this podcast. It's been an honor to not only chat with you before this, but just to host you on this platform. And um I hope that all of your listeners that have already heard your story pick something else up out of this. And then listeners that we have on our platform hear this and they pick something up that just challenges them today and just reminds them of uh what you have to do in in your recovery, in your sobriety walk. uh in your journey just to just to make those choices. And I think you've you've pointed out a lot. Um and we could sit here and probably talk for a few more hours, but uh this hour we'll do we'll do another hour, but this time you on my podcast. I love it. You just let me know when. Okay, Miss Allen, thank you so much for being with us today on the Recovery Bout Podcast. Thanks for having me. Thank you.