Don’t Rush the Process: Grief, Calling, and God | Kelly Wafford & Aubrey Howard | The Recovery Vow

In this episode of The Recovery Vow Podcast, Eric sits down with Kelly Wafford and Aubrey Howard, the women behind Rock & Meadow, to talk about grief, calling, faith, and why healing can’t be rushed.

What started as premarital counseling turned into grief work, deep friendship, and eventually a calling that required patience, obedience, and a willingness to sit in the waiting room with God.

They share why skipping grief creates long-term damage, how control can mask unprocessed pain, and what it looks like to build a life — and a mission — rooted in faith, courage, and resolve.

If you’re in transition, recovery, or asking “what’s next?”, this conversation will meet you right where you are.

In This Episode:
Why skipping grief isn’t healthy
The danger of rushing healing and “reframing too fast”
How Rock & Meadow was birthed in a waiting season
Faith, counseling, and doing the work together
“You’re doing better than you think — but there’s more”

Connect with Rock & Meadow:
Website: rockandmeadows.com
Instagram: @rockandmeadows

Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

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• Transcript

  [music] Hey guys, welcome to the Recovery V podcast. I'm your host, Eric Kennedy. If you aren't already, you can follow us on all of our social media platforms. For the old people, we're on Facebook. For that younger generation, you can check us out on Instagram. Or for the really, really cool people, we actually have Tik Tok, too. We're we're going to be streaming live today while we're talking to Kelly and Aubrey. And uh this episode will probably come out maybe four to six weeks. So, tune in uh and just sit back and enjoy this episode. We're going to be talking to two friends of mine that uh Kelly is someone that uh I learned how to do church work with probably 13 years ago. Um she is a very very kind person 95% of the time. [laughter] And Aubrey is the sweetest person that ever walked the face of the earth. 100% of the time. 100% of the time. So, um, we're going to be talking about Rock and Meadow. Now, Rock and Meadow is their organization that they formed, and we're going to hear from these two ladies on what Rock and Meadow does, how it serves people. And I asked them to, you know, incorporate how it serves not only people that they work with, but, you know, maybe people that come along that have dealt with some type of addiction or maybe they're in recovery. So that recovery could be a process addiction. It could be a substance addiction because if one [snorts] of my biggest things I want people to know is that everybody is in some kind of recovery of some kind. Um so let's just dig right in. Kelly Wford, thank you for being here. It is so good to see you. I haven't seen introduction. Did you like that? I've been working on that [laughter] forever. I have the perfect face for a radio. Um Aubrey, I get to hang out with you all the time, but thanks for coming in. I think I didn't know that you guys were were doing this until I saw something that popped up on Facebook because I'm old. Um, but I saw it was on Facebook. So, tell me what brought you together. I know your friendship brought you together. Tell me about your friendship and then tell me, you know, did what what happened? What was the pow? Let's do Rock and Meadow. You want to start? Yeah, I think so. You want to go all the way back to how we met? Sure. Yeah. So, it was actually kind of a funny story because um I am very uh typ and so [laughter] I know that's probably hard to imagine and Kelly's a little bit more go with the flow. And so, um at the time u my my husband now, Bryce and I, we were um dating, we were attending one of the marriage conferences and they were offering premarital uh counseling and I was like, "Oh, we should do that." Um, and so [laughter] I walked in and and I uh Kelly was the counselor for that and I told her Kelly was counseling. Yes. Kelly was a counselor. She No, no, no. She's a great counselor. She knows what she's doing. She's very good with her words. Yeah. And [snorts] so I walk in, of course, with a full agenda of what we're going to accomplish during this session. Um, primarily let's go ahead and let's get engaged. Let's get this process started. Um, and Kelly was like, "Okay, well yes." and can you tell me a little bit about what's going on in your life? And I was like, "Oh, well, I'm doing this and I work here and my mom just died." And she's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Um, what have you done for grief counseling?" And I'm like, "What is what is grief counseling?" Um, I just had never heard of that concept before. [laughter] And so she was like, "Why don't we take a step back and why don't we talk a little bit more about this piece of it?" Um, and so what she recommended was that I come in and um, and we just dive into that a little bit. Uh, which of course that did not fit in my agenda or of my plans at all. Did that did something that she is there key words that she said that said that made you think, oh, she needs to go through grief counseling before you tackle Yeah. Yeah. Well, just premarital in general with counseling, if somebody comes in and tells you what you should counsel them on, [laughter] it's kind of one of those things where you're like, "Okay, great list. Hold on. Let's back up a little bit and see why are we having so many things that we're like needing to get through so quickly." Gotcha. Yeah, makes sense. But then of course, yeah, the grief thing when and when someone loses something someone and it's been that short amount of time. I don't remember. It had been less than a year. Um and just skipped right over that and I thought, "No, that didn't feel healthy." That's a part of like trauma. Yeah. So your makeup, you wanted to go to, you know, well, she didn't until you didn't know until she told you that you needed counseling, but for some folks that that lose a loved one or somebody that's special or important, a mother figure, you know, for me, I would have, you know, back then I would have turned to, you know, drugs or alcohol. So it's that's a difference, but you know. Yeah. And for me um it was I mean it was probably equally unhealthy but I was just trying to control the transitions. I was trying to create um you know forge this happiness in my life through external circumstances and not necessarily deal with all of um the emotions and the grief that I was experiencing. Um because for me I'm great at reframing and that is a healthy skill. But if we are completely um changing the way our reality looks without addressing some things, then that can create some problems. And so, yeah, we actually um did some we did some grief counseling and then we uh we did I'm happy to say we did circle back and we did the premarital counseling. That was good. Yes. Got engaged, got married, all the good things. Kelly was there for all of that. Um it and it was in it was it was just I was immediately drawn to Kelly because she just had this I mean kind heart. She was a free spirit. Um she just had so much grace and peace and you know those people where you spend an hour with them and you just feel better for having been in their presence. That was Kelly for you. Yeah. That was Kelly. She just had so much Jesus love overflowing and um and I and I wanted more of that in my life. And so, um, as we were kind of wrapping up, I could tell that our work as, you know, in the counseling area that that was coming to a close. And so, I was really nervous, but I came into one of our last sessions and I was like, "Hey," I was like, "I don't I don't know how you feel about this, but I would really like for us to be friends. Like, maybe it's not a a counseling appointment anymore. Maybe we go grab lunch occasionally. Go get go get some coffee." Um, and did you have a circle then? Because you'd already been attending Stephen attending Steven's Creek Church. Yeah. But did you had had you'd connected yet? I wouldn't say that I had. I was actually going through a really um interesting uh transition where um you know, I'd had some really close friends that had moved away. My mom had just passed away. there was a lot that was um there was a lot that was going on and I had not noticed that the circle that I had had kind of fallen away. Um and so I was I was very um very alone and and I was I was comfortable with being alone but there there's being alone and then there's there's that loneliness that starts to creep in. Um and so yeah, I had not realized that my tribe had kind of fallen away from me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you [clears throat] guys go through this marriage counseling. You became friends. I guess you start this small group. Sounds like a boo. Did [laughter] Yeah. No, no, no, no. Clear that up. Everything's great now. [laughter] Clear that up. Um, but I mean, so you sparked this friendship through that conversation and then inside of that friendship, you continued to go through this process. When did you How long does it take to go through grief counseling, Kelly? If somebody brings that kind of trauma of losing a mom, it could be that is very different for everybody. Yeah. Um we tell people you're going to be dealing with the true effects of your grief for about two years. That's like minimum and for some people that goes longer. And obviously you have your better days, but you have to give yourself at least two years, especially if it's someone that you were that close to. Um I don't want to keep going yet. Okay. Tell me [laughter] your question. Does the grief okay in that grief? Did that make you Can you go through grief and premarital at the same time? Oo. Well, you have to deal with some of the hurt first. So, she hadn't dealt with any of it. It was almost like it happened, but it didn't. And that's kind of how their family operates as in like let's just look at the positive. You know, we had all these great years, so everything is okay. we'll just keep remembering all those good times and you know we're going to honor her by not being sad. Yeah. And so they hadn't processed through any of the hurt from they haven't even really accepted the loss. So when that is the case, you're really starting from day one almost and having to almost reopen the whole situation and dig back in. And I'm not saying Aubrey specifically and [snorts] like she's saying she has a lot of these coping mechanisms that were already very healthy, right? Um but I think it had masked a lot of her inability to process the actual hurt. I got it. So tell me from that point, Nino got married. Yes. Everything's going good. Yes. Because this I don't make this about, you know, your whole life story, but we're just trying to unpack the realness and what you had to go through. Yeah. And so you guys became friends. We did. Yeah. And it it's funny because we even had a different approach to friendship. For me, I I know that if something's a priority, it needs to be on your calendar. It needs to be something that Oh, you're very type A. I'm very type A. And so like for and for Kelly, it was just kind of like, oh, we'll see you whenever I see you. I was like, or we can go ahead and schedule like, you know, is your friendship still like that now? A little. Yes. very much so. [laughter] Well, no, and it's it's funny because, you know, Kelly has since uh moved out of town and we were able to be even more intentional with our friendship because we weren't just going to be able to pass each other, you know, in the aisle at church. It was like we we really had to have that. We actually had like a weekly call where we would just check in. I mean, on the calendar. Weekly call on the calendar. On the calendar. Yes. So, I'm very very intentional um with with my friendships. of it's important to me and so yeah got married and then um this was actually before she moved away this is kind of a little bit of of Rock and Meadow's origin story but um I was I had this idea that um I I'd had a lot of people that were asking me um you know how how do you how do you do what you do? How do you live the way that you live with such intentionality? And I'm thinking, well, you know, I have a blank notebook and I really plan out my day. Like I I figure out what's important and then I work that plan. And I was like, maybe I should share this with other people. And so I had this idea and I I called Kelly and I was like, "Hey, can can I run this by you?" And she was like, "Sure." So I stopped by and I told her, you know, I'm really looking to, you know, design maybe a planner and sell it on Etsy or something. And she's like, you know, Kelly, she she affirmed. She was like, "That's a great idea." And I really think that you're cheating people if that's all that you do because it's not just the piece of paper that you plan your day on. It's the way that you live your life. It's these principles that you live day in and day out. And she was like, "And that's what people need to learn and and need to understand." And so I was Yeah, I was going to pause you earlier. That's why whenever you asked me that question, I was about to launch in and I was like, "Hold on, it's not time yet." But backtracking just a little bit on this part. When she started coming in for the premarital counseling and then talking through the the pastoral care piece that we do here, you know, um I started realizing though that she would leave from her counseling session. And I had to go like to my desk real fast and write down notes because naturally as she's talking, I'm starting to get this understanding of how she lives. And I had never known anyone to live their life like that. What do you mean? What do you mean by that? the type of no just the type A but just the intentionality of everything. Now some of this we go back to her the coping mechanisms like and you know like you said having dealing with that grief some people choose drugs or alcohol or those sorts of things. Aubrey chose work or or fun like she chose work or she chose to be out of town you know those were her addictions. Um running nonetheless but running for what? Running for exercise. No. Running away [laughter] from all the Oh, I was like emotion. No, I'm not a runner. I did try that. It did not work out for me. I don't I was trying to get a joke out of that because I don't [laughter] do any exercise at all, but Well, I'll save I'll save a couple of jokes. Okay, hold hold them in your pocket. Oh, we'll get there. [laughter] Thanks, Wford. Um, no, but so she would leave though and she just was very consistent about everything she did. Like, we track every habit. We track how much water we're taking in. We track how many steps we're taking. We track how many books are we reading? What are we learning from these books? Um, how many friends are we talking to on the daily? Who are we checking in with? This is not you at all. She's bringing this you and helping you. She's saying all these things and it's just but because it's so deep in her like she's just throwing out words that every day she's analyzing her contribution. Every day she's analyzing like I just all these random things I'd never even thought of. I thought you just get up, you go to work, you talk to people, you go home, you see your kids, you make dinner, you go to bed, and you get up the next day and you do the same thing. And she's like, "Oh, that sounds terrible." [laughter] And just made me rethink my entire life, honestly. And so I was I spent a year with her coming to get what she was perceiving help at and at the same time and she was literally changing how I thought about everything. I grew so much in our weekly sessions. Um, and I just needed more information. And so before we even started talking about the planner or the anything else, I was already talking to her and praying through like, okay, people come and talk to me for pastoral care. And I get them to a point where they can recognize, okay, yeah, man, that did hurt. And, hey, now I'm better. I feel healed. Like, I know that the Holy Spirit is working in my life and I I can function. I'm doing okay. And I thought now they have to find an Aubrey. Like great, you're healed. Like God can do so much. You need somebody that's making you think differently and it needs to be on the regular. And so that's I just wanted to learn everything and soak in everything that she was doing just in her normal life. Um and so that is where Rocket Meadow came from. When she said she wanted to do a planner, I was like, "Bump the planner." Like somebody you need to teach classes. you need to be like having people in your circle all the time. And that was the wild part that I never considered because um you know even before this point I was always intentionally finding people that I could mentor and help and you know if they were if they were two steps behind me perfect let's like come on I want to help you up to this to this level and and show you what's working for me and show you where I've failed like be really transparent so that way you don't have to go through that. And I mean, this is just like a 12step program. I mean, you were sponsoring, you know, and I'm not trying to say that you guys are rewriting that. That's not that at all. But it's just crazy that it sounds just like that because people need to connect with other people that are better than them or just think new thoughts. You know what I mean? Better than them maybe not be the best words to use, but just think new thoughts and and create new habits. How about that? Yeah, definitely. And that was the piece that I was I was so I would get frustrated because I would pour my heart and soul and energy and time into these people and I'd be like, "You just need to do this. Just do this." And they couldn't do it. And I didn't understand why. And then I met Kelly and I realized that there's this whole other piece of if you're not healthy, like if you don't have a healthy condition, spirit, mind, body, you're not going to be able to perform, you know, like you do, like you need to in your contribution of the meaningful way that you give back to the world or you're not going to be able to connect um deeply with people that you know that you you're called to love and and to give your presence to. And so this was a whole piece that I had not considering. And I'm like, what if we combine these two concepts of the counseling and the coaching because it's not one or the other. It's let's heal and repair what's broken while we are constantly figuring out, okay, what's next? What's next? What's the next level? Because a life is just we we're constantly going to the next level. And then we're falling short, okay? and it's that failure and then we're looping back around and figuring out how to do it better. And and we're never exonerated from that loop. It's a continuous loop of of that self-discovery and and you know and growth process. How long ago was this when you guys decided to all right, we're going to take a little bit of you. We're [laughter] going to take a little bit of you and let's figure out how to do this. Did it come over like conversations over a year and then you said, "Okay, we're going to pull the plug or we're going to pull the trigger, not the plug." Yeah. No, so that's that's the painful part because it was um what what was that year? 2022. It was just before I moved. It was right before she so two and a half years. Yeah. And so I we we had this idea and we started working on it and she was very transparent and upfront. She said, "I have to tell you this. you know, we're probably going to be moving here soon. And I was like, "Oh, wow." Like, you know, because I had in my my head what this would look like, um, working together. And and we were like, "Okay, well, let's see how it figure out how to make this work." And for some reason, and it wasn't just logistics, it was like we just couldn't we couldn't move. Nothing was lining up. Yeah. There we were getting so much friction. And it wasn't that that's that's the difficult part because you know we can look at the analytical data and we can say okay well we just need to push through but the intuitive reflection was telling us this this is a yes but it's a not yet. And so we had this dream this seed of a you know of a dream that we had buried and it was like nothing was happening. Sometimes we get put in the waiting room. Yes. And it was really painful but we made that decision. Um I think it was shortly it was around Christmas time or maybe shortly after where we just said okay let's just let's shelf this and it took two years of I mean we would we would bring it up occasionally but never very seriously never just just a check-in of like is that seed still planted so and because what was really wild because I had really only known her a year a little longer but we had this conversation one day where we were like Well, what do you dream about big time? Like, what's your actual like? Let's look way down the road. And oh, that was wild. Yeah. We both basically pulled out our phones and we're like, well, I can just show you. I have a Pinterest board. And we had so many matching images and so many things that we had saved of our like big picture dreams. Like this is the 10 year, this is the 15, this is my legacy. Yeah. And I love that word legacy. Unbelievably similar because you guys are just a little bit different. You've been married how long? 20 years. 20 years. And you have three babies, three kids. Three. Well, one Don't talk about it. One [laughter] almost adult. I know. Yes. And you guys haven't had children yet, but And so you just got married. So you you're both women talking about this, right? Close to the same age. I'm assuming close. I'm not I don't want to know your age. Yeah. Like you don't have to say your age, but kind of close. You're not far off. Yeah. So, but two different very very different lifestyles that would have a different level of commitment. Were you already working at the time, Aubrey? Uh, yes. I Yes. [laughter] Yeah. So, I I did um I've done real estate investment since I was a teenager and so that's been the kind of the the wealth building that you know because because [clears throat] money is just a tool. And then I've it's a tool you got to have. Yes. And then I've also um I helped um a a good who became a really good friend build a business and get some systems in place. And so I really loved this um systematic approach to growth and scaling. And so that was what I did um primarily whenever I was working with Kelly. Okay. All right. So talk about Rocket Meadow. Yeah. Let's talk about Rocket Meadow. So this time you guys were in a waiting room for a little bit. You just kept talking about planting the seeds. Here's my Pinterest board. Let me see your Pinterest board. Y Pinterest boards are close to the same. Y you have a different mom level, different wife level, different wife level. Yeah. When did you decide to to to like, okay, we're going to do this and let's just see what happens. Let's throw it at the wall. And then where did the name Rock and Meadow come from? [laughter] Even that started. So in the beginning we said Rock and Meadow because we were kind of making fun of ourselves like she's the rock. She's just strong and sturdy and got her type A calendar and I'm the meadow [laughter] and I'm just going to blow her out and we're going to figure it out. And so even with that, so when we circled back really like you said, ready to pull the trigger, we're like, okay, we love everything. Rock and Moto doesn't fit. We had grown so much and we had developed so many different personality like traits and things. Not that you change who you are, but just tracking things, [laughter] right? Like I had adopted so much Aubrey and I was found so much grace, right? Yeah. No, seriously, it was wild. Um but yeah, so we it just didn't seem to fit. And what it really came down to is that the name was right. Our perspective on it was wrong. And what we found is that rock and meadow resembles everything that we want to display about God, about Jesus. Like he is your rock, your firm foundation. He is this meadow of grace and life and you know just blooming and the newness. Yeah. And it was actually 21 days of prayer. We I like I'm here in Augusta at the church just ugly crying in the sanctuary by myself and Kelly is in Greenville like ugly crying by herself like praying and and we are both getting this this message at the same time and we didn't realize this that God was telling me Aubrey you have tried to be the rock for so long and I never called you to be that for other people. And it was just like a weight was lifted off my life. And then Kelly just got a really clear message of, "Hey, recommend it was never about you. It was about me," [laughter] you know. And so, and so we like I I called her immediately after. She's like, "Hey, I'm I'm in a meeting." And I was like I just sent her a bunch of exclamation points and she said, "No, I just got the same thing." And I'm like, "What?" [laughter] Yeah. So that's your God confirmation literally. Yes. And so that was Rock and Meadow was birthed during uh or I guess it was it sprouted. maybe was a better way to say it because we planted the seed um like two years before in 2022 but then the of 21 days of prayer in 24 24 yeah August or January wait yes yeah December of 24 and then 21 days of prayer in January of 25 was whenever we really uh we were like we can do this we're going to we're going to just be diligent and obedient and faithful with the opportunities that are presented and just keep saying yes to God and we were figuring everything out as we went. Um and and there's an aspect of that that's still um for me as a type A person that's still kind of it's a wild way to live. You know, Kelly's been doing this for a while, but just to say yes and go. So, when you decided to start, did you say, "Okay, from a business standpoint, we're going to either be a nonprofit or a for-profit. We need to have our vision statement, you know, our business statement, whatever." What were your next steps when you decided to do this? She put me through the ringer with all those questions because I'm imagining with Miss Type A here you and she's been investment and she's been like part of a Kickstarter basically company. So she knew all these tax things and all the like and we've got to make sure that we have this number letter situation. And I was like, "Hey, [laughter] when I talk to you on Wednesday, let's just figure out if we want to do coaching." That's the meadow part. Yes. Exactly. [laughter] Yes. No. And it was it was great because I was for me it comes down to what do we value? And for both of us that that concept of sustainability is important. Like we we want to do ministry and we need to make sure it's sustainable ministry that we can continue to to do it long term. And so that was the concept of let's get the business piece running well and then let's let that fund all of the ministry that we can do and it's not that we wait until you know we're [clears throat] we do it we do it simultaneously you know because it takes a lot to just whether it's a nonprofit or for-profit. You've got to have a team. Yeah. I'm 40 almost 47 years old. I have no idea whether it's Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok. You got to have that though because that's how you're going to reach all the generations. Right. Well, that's the thing, too, is that we both hate social media. Yeah, [laughter] we hate it. But you got to have it for this. You have to have it. You got to have it. Yeah. So, that we went through all of those kind of like just the hurt part of like, you know, [clears throat] I don't want to do this. Um cuz it's like you take the fun out of it when you have to add the work aspect to it. I [laughter] know. Literally just killed it. Um but yeah, no, some of it is work. I think for some people social media is the fun or you know the content stuff or you know um and so we did have to me more so I had to get through the okay for the greater good like this is where we're headed this is what we're going to have to do to get there and we're still working through some of that. Yeah. Um, and not everything is right now the original vision of it. Like she said, we're simultaneously working through the the foundations. Yeah. We're we're building the house. And so right now we still are there. Sometimes we think we have the foundation and we see a little crack and we're filling that and we're just kind of massaging through it. Yeah. and and right now our flagship program um and this is something that it's been incredible because we've we've built it over the past few years and we've just pulled all these principles together because our our mission is we want to equip and encourage people so that way they can live fully in God's design and therefore they can go out and transform their communities. Who are the tell me tell the the listeners that'll be listening so you can look right down the barrel of that camera if you want to but tell me who your target audience is when you're talking about helping people like for me I'm helping people in some kind of recovery now I can say that everybody's in recovery right my my target audience are going to be people that come out of some kind of addiction specifically the supportive spouse of someone um but then I can I can elevator pitch that and just cast vision of how I reach everyone from the moms to dads brothers sisters So your target audience um is who? So that was the part that was challenging for us to figure out. And then whenever we had our very first uh workshop in May, the table was so diverse and I'm like this right here, this is our target market. And Kelly's like that doesn't help us. And I'm like all over the map. I was like I know. And [clears throat] I realize it's not so much a demographic. It's almost like a um a psychological factor of like anyone that is wanting that is at point A and is looking to get to point B. Anyone that wants to go through a transition and do it well and get better and and be healthier and and come out stronger. Um you know, somebody that's that wakes up and says, "Hey, I've I've, you know, got got my dream life. I've got the white picket fence. can live like this for the rest of my life and I don't want to grow or you know that that's probably not the person but anybody like a lot of our people they're newly retired and they're figuring out what do I want to do with the rest of my life and that's a beautiful place to be and then we've got someone that is a junior in high school fixing to go to college and they're sitting there going I don't know what I don't want to do with my life and I'm like yes okay whether you're 65 or you're 17 we're asking that question of God what's next for me like how can I use what you've given me and and go share it with other people. And you know for for me one of the things that I was sharing in that first class and it really resonated with a lot of people is that I feel like a lot of us we spend the beginning of our lives trying to figure out who we are and and what we have and the value that we can add and then the second half of life is the fun part because then we just get to pour it all out. And so for me, I just want to die empty. I want to die with nothing left on the table. I want everything that God gave me to be poured back out into other people. And just to hear that well done, good and faithful servant. That's the kind of life that I want to live. And so it may not be as dramatic for, you know, everybody that sits at our table, but there's got to be a little a little piece that says, I know that there's something more to this life. I know that I can do more with this life that I So, you're helping them kind of find their calling and then how to walk in that calling. Yes. First step is Yeah. the purpose, the calling. Yeah. That's the first thing that we go over in our flagship program, Foundations. Um we spend an entire Saturday morning just going over purpose and calling and what those are because those are words that we use a lot, but a lot of people don't truly have a grasp on on what that is. And so, you know, we we dive into that and then we dive into um you know, whether we've acknowledged it or not, if we get still and we get quiet, all of us can probably think of a vision, whether it's on a Pinterest board or whether it's this idea that we had whenever we were younger, if we get the time and space to dream, we'll have a vision. God will give us that vision. And then figuring out, well, how do we reconcile that with the way that we're living now? Like, who do we need to be to carry out this vision? And then the the final piece of that foundations program is okay, we're going to really equip you now. We're going to give you the tools to actually get that transformation started. And and you know, and part of it is the grace piece of God transforms us from the inside out. That that's a huge piece of it. And then the other piece is like sometimes we just have to be diligent and faithful and do the work. Are you willing to work with people that are in recovery? Absolutely. Yes. Um, so [clears throat] let's just do an exercise. Is that okay? I don't know. I'm just gonna try it. Yeah. Um, I want to come and and be served by you guys. Not I've been waiting to counsel you. Let [laughter] me tell you something. It's going to take a freaking team and I've spent a lot of money [snorts] on this, but um, what would it look like if if I reached out to you guys and I said, "Hey, what's my next step to connect with you guys? What's the process going to look like? How much time am I gonna am I going to spend with you? And then because you mentioned a Saturday morning. Um so you know is this isn't like a one day thing. You're figuring it all out. How much time are we spending with you? Well and that depends. So she keeps talking about the foundation's program. So that is a three-month process. We do three in-person workshops on those Saturday mornings and then we do virtual calls in the middle and we do mentoring and counseling throughout that program. But then there's the opportunity where you're saying right now if I just looked on your website and clicked a button and said I want to meet with you. What does that look like? And we almost handle it like an intake. Um where it's like okay well tell us your goals. Tell us your vision. What okay have how long have you been thinking about that? Oh 10 years. You haven't taken any steps. Let's talk about why. And that's a really short version of it and probably a critical way to view it. But just let's break down what has been the barrier. And so that's where we can discriminate at that point. Like do they need to spend a little more time on this counseling side? What's not healed? What's not what's not working right? Why are they not hearing what God's trying to say? And then the other side of oh, you just need a little bit more practice in your habits. Like you just need a little bit more of a system in place so that you can start taking your next steps. So it's kind of customizable almost out. they could I could come in and just need just words of confirmation over the next 90 days that you know I'm taking these steps but that people could spend longer than that with if they need to like ongoing. Yeah, absolutely. And and I think that the foundations program is an excellent place for people to start especially if they're figuring out what is it like that transition piece that's who's been in that class of what does my next season look like? And then somebody that like like has a goal, has an agenda, is really really clear on what they're looking to achieve, they can, you know, connect with Kelly and I and we can get them further faster. And that's that one-on-one coaching, counseling piece of let's let's repair the broken, let's focus in and and get diligent with the work um and make some stuff happen. And you know, and I think that either either way that we do that, I think that the value that Rock and Meadow is is that it's not just Aubrey and Kelly. It's a community. That's what we're looking to build. We're looking to build people get to network with each other. They're getting to meet each other. Yes. That's really cool. Yeah. And and that's that's the point. Yeah. That's the point because we don't want it to just be Aubrey and Kelly just doing this, you know, by ourselves. We want to build a community of of people that have faith and courage and resolve. I mean, those are some of our our key values. Um, and it's it's the [clears throat] faith and the belief and whether you're a seeker or whether you're a believer, um, to to ask those hard questions and to wrestle with that and understand what it is that we truly believe and then the courage to live those principles out because we can't do anything if we don't have the courage. Okay? And then the resolve of things. Remember we talked about that cycle of things are going to get hard. We're going to fail. We're going to fall short. Life on life's terms. Yes. Life gets real lifey some days. So like we got to have the resolve to keep pushing through. And that's where that community is really powerful because we're not going to we're not going to breeze over and just like for me um I have to just acknowledge what is the reality of and not reframe it immediately of just like man this is tough. this is hard and let's just acknowledge that and then let's say okay but we don't have to stay here. How can we what's one teeny tiny itty bitty thing that we can do to make this situation a little bit better tomorrow or today? Yeah. All of this it's the same kind of verbiage maybe not the exact same words. Yeah. But this is I remember hearing this um when I was going through you know my first you know year in uh recovery you know and a lot of people will and they need these tools these resources. Yeah. And what I really like about what you guys are doing is it's like you're not saying this is the only way that you're going to get to these places. It's this is just a tool that you guys have created a resource you guys have created just like recovery B is a as a resource. I'm not here to rewrite how people go through the 12 steps. I'm just here to hey while that's working and you need something to fill your other part of your time maybe it's on a Wednesday like you guys got them on Saturday I'll get them on Wednesday you know it's like we're giving them something to do so that they don't live alone in their thoughts you know what I mean um because that's a dangerous place to be for a lot of us so when um I can't remember exactly how I wanted to phrase the question but are there practical things you you make your clients do like are they taking like the inagram test and learn more about themselves. What are what are you guys doing in what's one of the workshops look like? Yeah. So, with with our workshops, what we have settled on for now is we go through all of these principles and each so let's take purpose for example. Purpose, we're going to give you five biblical truths. So, we're going to go back to the word. So, it's a biblical truth with the practical neuroscience. So, we're going to teach you the truth and then as we're winding down for the day, we're going to actually apply that to your life in very practical terms of neuroscience and figure out um you know, for we've had a lot of people that go through those those classes and they've never sat down um with a list of virtues and values and figured out what's important to me. You know, is is courage important to me? Is generosity important to me? Is gratitude important to me? And so, just really practical figuring so that that's the self-discovery piece. Um, and I think that uh you mentioned the inagramram. I think that those personality um assessments and profiles can be uh really powerful and enlightening. And I also have to really work with people to challenge them. Don't settle there. Don't use that as an excuse of well that's just the way that I am. Because I remember the very first time I did the uh the MyersBriggs test and I got a ENTJ. I'm like whoa I did not know that's the way I came across. Like very intense. Um, so it was helpful for me and I realized that I'm not just going to say, "Oh, well, I'm just abrasive. That's just who I am." It's an opportunity for us to say, "Interesting. Okay, how can I how can I soften this a little bit?" I guess we can all be abrasive, too, at certain times. Like, if I took that test at say 8:00 at night when the day is done and maybe the all the family stuff just happened, it could be a different outcome. Maybe. I don't know. Absolutely. Yes. I do have one kind of real question. Um I had to be very careful about um if I offer marriage extradiction to a treatment center um they've asked you know do you is this are you pushing this as faith-based? Well I I don't mention any scripture in the book. I I want people to find their relationship with God. I'm still finding my relationship with God. I'm in process. But you mentioned neuroscience and scripture. Have you ever um found that that does that intimidate people in a in a way? Both both sides of it depending on where they fall on that. And even to be honest, when we first started meeting and having these conversations about, well, how are we presenting this information? There were a few things that she said that I was like, hold up. Cuz all I know, I don't know neuroscience. I Yeah, she said neuroscience. I'm like, okay, she's building rockets or something. I have no idea what you're talking about. [laughter] I was like, hold on. Um there were certain things that she would say the way that she would present them and I would have to but what I started responding to her with was give me a minute to chew on that. Let me figure out if this is what I actually think about this or if this is what I've always said or always thought or believed or whatever. And so, um, there are some of these concepts that if somebody is only only like spiritual, only been the way that I've been, that's we don't really read big books. I don't like if God said it, I believe it. And so, that's all I need to know. Yeah. We don't read big. You see the size of that book? You know why it's that big? These are my people. I'm surpris [laughter] It should have popups and coloring sheets in there. Thank you. That's how practical it is because I didn't want to intimidate people like in the first year of recovery. I mean, you can't I hate to say this and it sound wrong, like I you have to be careful not to Jesus you, you know what I mean? And so, you let you have to let people see you in your um your walk and in in your faith and your belief. Well, and as much as I was having to relearn some of that, the phrases and things like that, I was afraid that I was going to be pushing too much spiritual at her like, you know, am I crossing the line? Do you need to keep this more on the like do you want it to be more science? Do you need it to be more of this? Do I need to like maybe I don't look at this as a ministry? This is just kind of a business and if people are believers that we'll incorporate some of the spiritual but that is a big part of what transitioned in our the two years in our years of that's why he put you in waiting room within the waiting room. We really discovered like she she came back with this whole softer approach of like wait I'm not I say soft soft towards the Holy Spirit bold in the Holy Spirit because she was like wait I can't talk about any of this if I don't talk about God he is the creator of all these things so we have to figure out a way to just make sure they understand don't be offended but this is if you don't understand who you are in Christ we really don't have anything to build on right and so it's it's that piece of of making it palatable to whatever level you're coming in on, whether you grew up in church or whether you know this is a completely new concept and you're like, what are we talking about? Um, and and just explaining these principles in very simple terms where people can understand and then, hey, here's here's a little reference point here. Here's a scripture. This is this is where this comes from. Like, we believe that your life has purpose. We believe that if you are alive, it's you've got some unfinished work to attend to. And so, and so we'll go over this concept and it's like, well, here's here's where we get this. Um, and so and and yeah, there was a during that two years, I mean, Kelly read some brain books and she was like, [clears throat] whoa, like there's some turns out it's it's hard to mix that. I mean, you know, um I always wanted to write a book, but you know, if id have done that project in my first year, you know, 14 years ago, it would have probably flopped. Yeah. You know, so I think it's very cool that you guys had to wait that two years because it was just kind of prepping you. And I don't want to go back to like your personal story, but I remember when you came here, like you went through a whole transition to get to where you are now spiritually. Am I Am I right in that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I um you know, I I grew up in church and so I had this faith background and you know, it was at a time where it goes back to that community like right as I was becoming a a pre-teen teenager, uh my church kind of fell apart and and it wasn't it moved locations, it moved out of town. And so, right at that point where I needed that community the most, it was like, well, that's gone, you know. And so at that point we had tried um to find other communities and nothing just quite felt like a fit. And so um obviously I was not uh super persistent with with finding that but I was just like okay cool whatever. And so, um, and I've been coming to the creek for a really, really long time, like probably 10 years, but nobody knew me because I would go and I'd run on the canal, um, or walk on on Sunday mornings and then as I was coming back, I would always be like, "Huh, I think I'm just going to stop in and I'm just going to go stand at the very very back of not even sick, guys. I was not in the sanctuary, but just Wait, what? Oh, yeah. I would stand back there in that atrium and I would lean up against the pole because I mean I'm just I'm sweaty. I just ran on the canal and I would just stand in the very very back and just watch the service on the screen. Um, you know, and then whenever y'all set up the patio, I was like, "Okay, cool. I don't even have to come in the building." And so I was I am very uh whenever whenever I'm believe and whenever I'm all in, I am fully allin, but it takes me a long time to put everything in. Yeah. And so people that come to us may be standing in the back of the room waiting to hear that one word that clicks from you or from Kelly or from me, you know, that says, "Okay, this is where I'm supposed to be." Yeah. And then they dive in even more. Right. And that's what we want. We want people to come in and sit in the back of our room and to have questions and not to completely understand or not completely be, you know, fully bought in. That's okay. We want that. We We encourage that. Um, bring your questions for sure. That's the fun part. So, what's the goal you guys think Rocky Meadow um what's the goal over the next five years? Where would you where would you guys like to see it based on where you are with work, where you are with family, you know, um as you're not in the waiting room anymore, but now you're on the other side of it. Um what does what these next five years look like for you? Have you talked about it? Oh, yes, of course we have. I don't Are we putting out the whole thing? You put out whatever you want to put out. You're talking to America. You can either lie to them or you can tell them the truth. [laughter] And a few people in the UK and Netherlands and Canada. Yeah. Oh, look at you. [laughter] What's going on? I Yeah, I think I think go for it. Share that vision. So, ultimately, when we said we were like connecting our Pinterest boards, this is a this is a place that we It's a place, not a not a business. It's like we want you to be able to come here and get what you need. Um whether that's going to be counseling, whether that is coaching, um whether it's hot spaghetti. I'm not say we're not doing a feeding shelter, but like [laughter] Oh, I was like, why would you say that to the girl can cook is I love to cook. That's my that's how I say I love language. Yeah. [laughter] Um, [clears throat] but yeah, so we are we're doing the foundations program and we are doing one-on-one coaching and counseling, but the ultimate goal is having a table, literally the longest table that you could ever build us. Yeah. Um so that people can come and just be in an environment that allows them to eat, drink, and be married and like just understand the enjoyment of your purpose and the enjoyment of the Holy Spirit and also living out this life that you were meant to be living. Yeah. Are you doing this as a business or is this a nonprofit? Oh man. Yes. Yes. And yes. I I think it's both. I think um we also our uh our dreams are are underfunded. We'll say that. Um so, you know, that the foundations program um is is really important to us and we're figuring out how do we do scholarship programs and how do we get into underresourced, underserved um communities and share these these concepts? We want them to come have a seat at our table. We want them to sit at tables that they they might not have ever considered joining before. And so figuring out how to get into those communities, I think, is going to be um you know, a a a challenge for us. And it's been amazing because every time that we say yes and we're faithful with what he puts in front of us, it's like there's a new opportunity and we be door after door after door after door. Yes. So it's incred. So yeah, long long term is is that that vision that we initially were comparing is that [clears throat] that gathering place that that 100 acre retreat of just a place for people to come and to be healed and to grow and to learn and to live fully learn how to live fully in God's design with that faith, courage, and resolve. Um, so that not to stay there, not to live there, but to go back out into their communities and and start transforming their communities with with what they're learning. Um, because Aubrey their own tables. Yes. Because everyone's story is important. Um, Aubrey and Kelly's story is not going to resonate with everyone, but there's there's someone that has a story that they need to tell and we want to equip and encourage them to be able to do that. Yeah, that's great. Will you do like um like retreats like a overnight retreat like or you know like something and and I guess I need to say this too for the for the people that are listening. Are you gearing this towards women majority or is it is it co-ed? No, I actually kind of anticipated that it would be more women just because of who we are. You know, people just naturally drawn to who you are. But the our last two classes have been majority male. Really? Which is I I know. [laughter] I mean, I don't want to sound surprised, but No. Well, I was I will own that. I was definitely surprised they were male or couples um coming in to do this like, hey, we both have a we want to see life bigger um kind of vision coming into the room. And so that has been really fun and interesting. So like a retreat. I've done women's ministry so much that like when she when we were talking about doing retreats I was like yeah like pajama party like we're just gonna rent a [laughter] cabin and go you know have a retreat. And in actuality we what we're seeing is that it's not going to be that. It really is going to be an intensive weekend. So yes we do have one that will be in 2026. We haven't done one so far a weekend. it's okay intensive, but it will be in May of 2026. Um where yeah, we'll have um you know, separate housing because it's not just a girls pajama party, but we'll yeah, we'll have a place where they can come and get the full the full run in. Here's what I would like to do um from from Eric Recovery Vow. Uh if you have uh people that come through your program that have dealt with addiction, either the the male or the female, I'd love to sponsor them as they go through your program and just see how that works. Um if they come through the collective, my program, and they need that another step like we're we're a toolbox, right? You're you're a tool. I'm a I don't you're not a tool. [laughter] Um you're you're a resource. I'm a resource in this toolbox. Um, and so I'd love to figure out how we work together just to serve people. Like it's all I've heard on your heart is how can you serve people? That's what my heart is. How can I just We want to give people what we feel, what we see, and what's been changed in our lives, right? We want to and people aren't defined by their addiction anymore. They're not defined by their past and what they're laying on the table when they come hang out with you guys. And we want them to see how beautiful the meadow is. And even sometimes when you get hit by the rock, [laughter] it's still okay. You've got to deal with it. people when they get into um recovery and maybe they are married, man, these life on life's terms and these circumstances, they come and go just like anything else. Um and so we can now, you know, through a working together, a partnership or whatever, we just serve them together. I think absolutely we figure it out. So I'm going to give you guys a couple of the books just to take so you kind of know where my heart is in that and and we'll go from that. Do you have any as we kind of close, Kelly? you and I. Okay, I'm gonna tell one story just so people know how close we are. I started serving at this church 13 years ago and I remember sitting in the auditorium on the first impressions team and um Kelly said she would cut me if we [laughter] did something wrong. That sounds about right. So there's a little rock in that meadow. I was going to say [laughter] and we've been we've been really good. She's been a great friend and I'll say this um uh and you know this uh I've heard her talk so highly about you before this even started like in our staff meetings and things like that. So, we've we've prayed for you and and the things that you were you were already doing. Uh so, just know that the work you you were doing before you even got to the waiting room was was prayed for over your friend. And um I'm just want to say I'm proud of y'all. It takes a lot to just to make a decision to go out and do these things. And nobody wants to be u not successful at it, but this isn't a measurable like if you're helping one person, you're doing what you're worth. So, I am very proud. Thank you, Miss Aubby, for coming and being on the Recovery Bout podcast. I didn't know if you knew what you were getting into, but uh I hope I fulfilled with this platform and gave you the opportunity to share what you wanted to share. Is there anything that you would want to say in a closing remark and then I'll come back to my friend Kelly. No, we just were so appreciative to be able to have this conversation. I had um whenever we had connected, you know, a couple months back, I had gone through and listened to some episodes to see what I was getting into and I was We're all over the place. Yeah, I would. No, I was so excited because you just do such a great job with with making this a comfortable place to connect and talk and it doesn't feel like you're you're grilling us. It feels like we're getting to connect and tell a story. Yeah. Um and and I just I love that that Yeah. It's just a platform. I mean, we're we are a nonprofit. You know, I'll say this. Um, I used to have to go door todo and and and beg for money for drugs and alcohol. And now I go door todoor and [laughter] beg for money to to run a nonprofit to help people, you know, and so it it's funny how God just, you know, turns things. Um, but I appreciate that. That makes me feel confident. Um, when you say things like that, just lets me know we're doing the right thing. Absolutely, Miss Kelly. You really are. I know that you just said you were proud of us, but my god, Eric, like I celebrated year one of sobriety with you. And five. Yep. and Ted. Yeah. I remember getting to see the chips and how big of a deal that that was. And I remember when you were about to propose to Kristen. Yeah. All clean and sober and a godly man. Who knew? Who knew that? I was about 5 years old. A 5-year-old Christian is what I look at cuz I didn't find I didn't become a Christian till I came here, you know. Yeah. So, I appreciate that. So, I know that this has been something on your heart for so long and you had to go through a period of time where you disconnected from it and you had to grow and you had to become who you were before you could pour back out to this community, right? And man, did you do it and you came back Yeah. fun. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's intimidating when you have a camera on you or you talk to different people and you want to make sure you say the right words. Yes. You'll never, you know, it's like uh you just need to be present. Yeah. You just need to listen. You just need to be a good listener. And then the other stuff, uh, is just so much fun. Um, and we've we've been blessed to have people on the podcast that that have influence or when, you know, we had, um, Quint Aaron that was on the Blind Side. We had Jeremy Jackson on last week that was in Baywatch, you know, um, speaking in different stages. And so, I know that that's coming for you guys, too. God's going to prepare you in this season for for speaking to people on on different stages. And that stage is going to get bigger. So, just be ready for that. But you did you didn't you dodged I appreciate the compliment, but you dodged a question. What's one thing you would leave the listeners that have heard you guys today? What would you leave them with? Just know that. Well, this is what we always say in counseling. You're doing better than you think you are, but there's always more. And so, don't settle for just not knowing what you don't know. Like, dig a little bit deeper and and just be willing to think new thoughts. And if we can help, we'd love to help. And if Eric needs to help, let Eric help. [laughter] But that's it. Think new thoughts and and don't be afraid to to read a different kind of book. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for being on the Recovery Bout podcast with us today. You've heard from Kelly and Aubrey and you've heard some really really uh great clear information on what it looks like to just find your calling and then how to walk in that calling. So, if they want to connect with you guys, what's the best way for them to connect with you? The website. It's rockandme spelledout.com. Rockandme.com and D. Not the little correct throw. Okay. And Kelly's doing good work on Instagram, too. Yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. Rock and Meadow Co. So, you don't help the older people. Facebook. Every once in a while, we share something over there. [laughter] Tik Tok. Oh, heck no. Okay. Learning curve. Well, [clears throat] thank you guys so much. If you're not already subscribed, you can follow us on our YouTube channel. You can also subscribe on our Recovery V Collective. You can see that on our website. If you haven't bought a bag of our private line coffee yet, you can do so. And uh if you would like to send me an email direct, you can do that by going to recovery valgmail.com. I'll see you next week.