Healing in Community: Real Talk on Addiction & Lasting Recovery

In this powerful episode of the Recovery Vow Podcast, we sit down for an honest roundtable conversation about what real recovery looks like behind closed doors with Jordan Shelton, Dr. John A. King and Matt Robinson. This episode dives deep into the struggles we face when addiction impacts trust, intimacy, and emotional safety—and how healing happens through vulnerability, accountability, and community.

You’ll hear practical insights, hard-earned wisdom, and hope-filled encouragement for those navigating betrayal, rebuilding trust, and pursuing lifelong recovery together. Whether you’re in early recovery or years into the journey, this conversation will remind you that transformation is possible—and you don’t have to walk it alone.

Connect with us:
Socials: @‌RecoveryVow
Website: http://recoveryvow.com
Email: recoveryvow@gmail.com

New episodes every other Monday! Top ways to support this podcast:

• Give this video a thumbs up

• Subscribe to our channel

• Follow us on FB and IG

• Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, and Amazon Music

• Transcript

  Hey, thanks for joining us on the Recovery About podcast today. I am the most excited I've been in a long time. One, because I'm doing something we haven't ever done. Um, is we're having a roundt discussion with some people that were on the podcast this past year. My good friend Matt Robinson from Till the Wheels Fall Off, Jordan Clower, who is a huge Tik Tok influencer, and Dr. John King, who is the nugget dropper of information if you've ever uh needed to hear anything. But just hang tight. I mean, we have different perspective and just different input on our views of life and recovery and sobriety and all of that. And I just want to say um you will get something from this from this conversation. So sit back, tune in and enjoy. Thank you guys for being here today on the recovery about podcast. Let me tell you how important this is to me. It's important to me because each one of you came on the podcast last year. You've heard from me, but the biggest thing is that the world got to hear from you. Dr. Ching, Dr. King, Jordan, and my guy Matt. I mean, all of you have an influence. You all speak into people's lives. You either make people laugh through the way that you view sobriety is how you say it. I love how you say sobriety. Soiety. Yep. And Matt, you and Paige, and how you reach uh your wheelies is what we man. And then Dr. King, you have the coolest accent on in this part of Texas. Thank you very much. 100%. And you are the the wisest man I know in this area. Um, you need to get out more, brother. No, I don't. We We named our little group How to Make a Pancake because of you. Um, but here's what I want to do today. I I just wanted to thank you guys for for coming here. Um, and I just wanted to have conversation just like when we decided to get together and um, and talk on a Tik Tok live and we just talk about our recovery. So, let's kind of recap what 2025 looked like for each one of you. How about that? So, what has happened for you in 2025? Matt, we'll start with you. Like, what what happened in 2025 that was instrumental in not only you and Paige and the work that you're doing, but in your recovery? And then same question is going to be for you, Jordan, and Dr. King as we kind of go around. But cross talk as much as you want. As much as we want. Yeah. Perfect. Man, what's happened for me? It's been weird. Like 2025 um like when we started the show, we started in 2022 and I told Paige like I I'll give it five years. Five years of like really doing this, see if we can help people, see if the le if the message lands. And we decided in the beginning even if it doesn't, we're just going to keep doing it. We're just going to we're going to make the show. That's good. And then it took about 3 years to really gain some traction in it and like momentum. And the funny thing about identity is that I think identity lags reality by one to two years. That's a Mark Manson quote that I love and it feels true because where I'm at right now, I think a lot of people listen to the show and they'll follow the accounts and I don't feel like that guy that they think I am, you know? So, this last year has been kind of understanding self-awareness as yourself like with a show and like a platform like it's just strange. It's it's surreal like cuz um I'm just a dude. But you drop some nuggets, man. I watch everything you put. I mean, you do I don't feel that way. And I think that's what 2025 has been, like me recognizing that maybe I'm more adult than I think. Like I I saw this quote and it said, um, I'm an adult the same way a tomato is a fruit. And I feel that way about myself in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? Like a fruit apparently. It's really simple actually. No, it's it's way easier. Fruits are sweet and vegetables aren't. End of story. I'm not arguing with anyone about it. But anyway, um this year has just really been for me like how many Rs are in strawberry? Yeah, right. Don't ask AI to spell anything if you don't know what that video is about. It will tell you there are two Rs in Strawberry and it will argue with you till you go blue in the face. But anyway, it's just been it's been weird like 2025 for us has been um like coming to terms with like we actually did something that's affecting people's lives and it's influencing people's lives and in a really positive way and coming to terms with that like okay so what do we do with this now? like wh what next? Like we have to help people. We've got to be there for people and like what does that even look like? And truth is I still don't know. I'm still working a full-time job running a business and I'm raising kids and so we're in that season of life. It's like I'm a baseball coach and I'm a dance dad and like we're non-stop in that man. My son's on two different teams right now and it's like it's nuts. But like this if you ask me my the honest to God truth like this is the most important work we do. Yeah. This is the most important thing in my life. And I think people see you being the the coach and the dad and all that that you're still helping them even when you're not behind a mic or on camera because they they need to see that this is what it's like as a dad and a husband in recovery sometimes. Yeah. Recoveryy's been I mean recovery is one of those things I think you have to keep it fresh, you know, like um like year 1 through five to me still feels like really early now. I look back on it I was like I was such a baby and didn't realize it. And then like 5 through 10, 10 through 15, it's it's just it's the same but different. You know what I mean? Like do you feel that if you don't keep it fresh, then you'll get complacent? Yeah, I do. I I I think that like our ability to grow is proportional to the level of truth that we can accept about ourselves without running away. And so what that means, it's important. It's it's precise quote in that it's proportional. So it scales, right? So if you can be a little honest with yourself, then you can grow a little. And if you can be a little more honest with yourself, you can grow a little more. But we're think about recoveries. Like those first few years, you make so many major transformations because you're honest for the first time with yourself. And then it's about getting more and more honest as things pop up in your life that you can overlook if you're not careful. Staying involved with other people that are in recovery, whether you have a process or not, being around people that are in a way, I guess, encouraging you to be honest with yourself and more and more honest. So, like what's popping up in my life right now that I haven't been looking at? That's kind of what I guess mature recovery starts to become. It's like you're uncovering more and more layers of yourself. And it's like what what what feelings am I afraid to feel? Like what emotions am I just completely disregarding because I'm a workaholic now? Um like what what else am I masking? Right. So, how's it popped up? And that's that's been like the last year of my recovery. So, you're talking about uh being relevant. What do you um you mean just like finding how to reach people in this new year or how recoveryy's evolving? Me? Yeah. Say that again. So like with the with the people that you're working with and the question you asked him about about staying relevant. Um you know I don't ever want what I do with recovery B to be repetitive to where it gets becomes boring. You know what I mean? I like hearing other people's opinions and inputs whether I agree with it or not. I just like hearing it. This isn't a political thing. This is this is recovery and just it it's just conversation based. But what what do you feel like you're doing in the world that you're in that that keeps you uh from becoming repetitive? I guess Dr. King, if you'll lean in lean into the mic for us so we can so we can hear you. Oh, there you go. Um that's a that's a great question. That that sounds like I've got a plan and I appreciate that confidence. I think um 2025 was an ass kicking personally. You know, I lost two brothers. I had another one go to jail. I went from being an orphan to having a tribe to being an orphan again. 2025 was grief for me. Like the whole I I've got another mate who's I'll go home and find out if he's dead. Golf syndrome. I mean, it's just a mate's wife committed suicide. I I mean it's every 8 weeks for the whole year I've I've lost a significant someone. So I go through this thing and I realized in December that I don't process grief. I've actually never processed my childhood. I never processed having being abused and trafficked. All I ever did was clamp down, shut up, and run. And I've done that my entire life. and I was confronted with um how emotionally fractured I was. And so, you know, I don't know. I don't know, man. Like 2025 to me was really scraping the [  ] together and trying to turn it into fertilizer. It it really it really has been, you know, I um I understood for the first time that, you know, I'm I've been on the autistic spectrum my entire life and mastered it. I think the rating is 175. I come in at about 140. ADHD, complex post-traumatic stress, bro, I've got the entire bloody alphabet. And I didn't understand or realize that that how much I just with glue and wire held my life together. And I think coming out of last year into this year, it's been, you know, it's just been the stripping away of everything that I not that I built because I'd done a lot of times of pulling it apart, but I mean times of sitting with myself. I learned this in the outback to be able to sit with grief and to really and to really look at authentic self. What does that really mean? So, I don't know if I gave anybody anything, mate. I did my best to help people along the way. I think you did it. Well, yeah. I And thank you. I But I think for me, we did a lot of things. We launched apps. We did all this sort of stuff. So, yeah, you're right. Thank you. Um, but this this year was really about uh and this is what what I was alluding to is so I'm 15 years into this thing. I think in the last two years I've had my feet under me. feeling finally like I'd say I've arrived at some semblance of redefining my normal. And now 2025 comes up and it goes, you know, just, you know, hold your ankles or I'm going to kick you in the nuts or something. And it's like, okay, okay, we're going to go again. There's a whole another thing. and and that attitude you talked about about going at it fresh with that same sense of zeal and commitment to wholeness is that's the spark I think that's important in whatever stage of our journey is am I prepared to put in as much work now um as I was back then and am I prepared to be as passionate about becoming whole now as I was back then I think that's you know so this past year that was That sounds like a hor I'm sorry you had to go through all of that. I didn't I didn't know. So was I, mate. I didn't know any of that. Horrible. It was horrible. Horrible year. Well, we're just going to eliminate that. What are you expecting? What's What's the uh hope for 2026? I wouldn't eliminate it. Thank you, but I'm not trying to be a dick on this, but I really wouldn't I um I've learned some things that at some point here in a minute, they're going to become really important lessons. And uh at moment they just hurt like barb wire but I can feel that there's something coming. And so I want to when I was when I was out bush we'd sit with our grief if someone died and we'd sit with things and that concept of sitting with that's what I want to do in 2026. I want to I want to sit with some things you know and let them be a part of you know the next bit. I think it was Freud that said, "Emotions buried alive never die." Yeah. You know, and so what did you discover through that process of like recognizing what you Yeah. pushed out, sitting with that? Because I I guess you don't know what it is until you sit with it, right? Yeah. Until you look at it and you bring it out and um I I don't know, brother. Like that's a that's a great question. and um how how incredibly resilient I've been. Mhm. How how incredibly high functioning I've been. Like I operated at a level of brokenness that I I don't know I don't know many who would have and I'm not trying to be arrogant in that. I just know with everything I when I stack them up and go bro like that's just super human like how the hell did you do that? It's like I don't know. Pain tolerance through the roof. Yes. The pain but but so the pain tolerance is through the roof. So then again, I've got to learn to dial that back down because at some I've recognized that that's really unhealthy. So I can't live with that level of unresolved trauma. I've lived with it my entire life. So how do you dial back a pain tolerance? You know what's interesting? I was Paige and I were talking about this, me and my wife, cuz our show, we go back and we talk about trauma a lot. The stuff that I put her through, the stuff that we've been through together. And so week in week out we're talking about all this really really heavy stuff. And sometimes we have to look at each other and be like like our life is really good. And so like the inverse of that quote is that emotions that you won't let die will bury you alive. And so I think that there is there is I don't know what it looks like but there's a limit to how much we can explore before we we've processed it. We've learned the lessons from it and then we move on. Like I don't I think it's longer than a month. you know, maybe a year, two years, something like that with the lessons that come from it and then you walk forward and with that though comes sort of an adjusted pain tolerance for this sort of thing because you're more aware of it. I think you'll always have the pain tolerance the awareness. It's the awareness that changes. Yes, it is. And that's true, brother, cuz you know, like our marriage is wonderful and like I would never be where I am without Melissa. I I she's been a huge part in that power of a partner in recovery. And um it's that it's that awareness and being self-aware like even today we were talking about things like we we're in the middle of this 3-day inner you know revelation we've got going on at the moment and with that you know uh information revelation application transformation. So you find out a thing it becomes your thing you apply the thing and then you change. So, we've been accumulating this in and we hit this this this breaking point, this tipping point, and we go, "Oh, no. This makes sense now." And so, we've been looking at that and verbalizing and understanding these nuances and being able to articulate these bits and pieces. And it's been a it's I know it sounds odd, but it's like really exciting like 18 hours. It's the most exciting 18 hours I've had in probably four or five years. I mean unpacking being able to identify name and then go okay I know this I name it and now I've got a solution for this thing. It's this you know this is last eight you know 18 hours have been just missing puzzle pieces. Yeah. Yeah. And go okay now I can see how this tracks how the grief got compressed how that led to this behavior. Now combine that with a couple of letters from the alphabet. This particular thing now turns up here and it manifests in that behavior. Oh, it's important too because the story you tell yourself or sorry that the story of what happened to you is nowhere nearly as important as the story that you tell yourself about what happened. And that's where the identity comes from is the understanding of all those pieces and how they work together manifesting your behaviors and emotions and and I think not tying your real identity to those manifestations is like being able to not disassociate but being able to say this was done to me not by me. I did not choose these things but I take responsibility for these particular set of actions or behaviors that I got involved in and now that this is removed now I'm left with this so I need to unpack that like why am I this source is gone but why am I still behaving like this so let's talk about that thing and I think that plays into a range of things when we go into trauma and we end up in addiction it's like yeah you remove that aspect but still you've got this thing over here What is that behavior? Is that fear or anger? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Rejection, self-doubt, um selfmutilation, whatever that thing is that's manifesting. Often it's now removed from the source. So, you can no longer blame the source. I can't blame being trafficked as a kid now for this series of manifestations up here. But what I've got is a series of manifestations that root cause. But now, okay, how do I reclaim this land? Mhm. How do I how do I bring that back and reintegrate that series of behaviors into who I am? That's really I don't know, man. If anyone gets an idea. No, I mean, I'm glad you shared that. I was hoping you would have a definitive answer. Doctor, give me a couple of months. One thing that Matt shared when we did our our TikTok live uh and I wanted to hear from Jordan's point of view on this um was the way that you and I I want to make sure I word this correctly is how we changed people's outcome because of our addiction um like if we hadn't have got in gotten into it what would their life have been like and when you said that I was like well I wonder what everybody's life would have been like if I hadn't made those decisions so Jordan like you're the and you're you're not the baby in recovery in this circle here, but you're you're the you're the you're the newest. Um, but your your approach to your sobriety and and the way that you walk in life, one, it's wonderful the way that you are just real and that's why I love you so much. But I want you to tell us like what do you what do you do when you think about a comment like that? Do you think about your mom and dad and your and your sisters and and how how you shape their life because of that, but also how do you shape their life now with your with your choice to walk in recovery? Well, I've been thinking about that a lot since Matt said it too and kind of what you know, exactly what you said, what everyone else's life would look like without my addiction. And um for my family, honestly, I kind of isolated from them during that time. So, it wasn't like we were spending a ton of time together or they were sort of my victims, for lack of a better word. I always kind of put that energy into a partner or whoever was willing to be around and stay around. But temporarily, right? Or Yeah. For however long, right? Temporarily. Cuz there's, you know, no real grounding to any of that. Um, and so I think now what I do for them is just show them how I live in sobriety. And that's how I found sobriety myself through just watching other people like you guys talk about your experiences and not necessarily from a recovery like medical recovery standpoint. Just from like this is what a day-to-day looks like. This is what grief looks like. this is what navigating a relationship even after you know maybe the rough parts have passed because that's really where kind of the rough seas lies after everything's come out and then like you said uh Dr. can you're just sitting in it. And um so that's where I've really been the last year is like you said again, Matt, um I'm pretty early in recovery. Um and so you're up on 5 years. It's January. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. Um yeah, 5 years is considered long-term recovery at that point. Really? Okay. Well, see, I was thinking like when you called past 5 years mature recovery, I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds about right." Because up till this point, it's not like I've been treading water, but this past year, I've really had time to sit and reflect and go, "Okay, from the time I quit drinking to now. I've built, rebuilt a beautiful life. I've got a wonderful husband. I have incredible family. I have wonderful friends. I am so lucky. I get to be a yoga teacher. I get to come here and do things like this and have friends and you know mutuals like you guys. It's awesome. I love being around people who are doing cool things. And so I get to reflect and go, okay, what was it that like actually within me? Not just what did I do, but what feelings did I feel? What actions did I actually take? What actions did I not take that I probably could have and should have? And what did my actions in addiction do to those people that were again like the victim of my behavior? What did that do to them at that time and now? And not so much in a way that I feel responsible for that, but more of what does that mean about myself and where my mindset was and what kind of person does that make me? Yeah. And now I have the clarity to go, "Oh [  ] I I kind of had the clarity back then, too." And that's embarrassing and frustrating. That's when it gets fun though, right? Yeah. No. Well, but Exactly. And now I'm like, "Okay." Like my shower thoughts. Shower thoughts. I can go, well, this happened here and then that made me feel this way and then this led to this. But ultimately, those were my choices, my actions. I knew what I was doing. I knew that it was wrong. I've got a great mother. Thank you. and let it be know she did teach me she did teach me the the right things so that then it's all on me. Well [  ] Yep. Yeah. And that isn't that it sorry but isn't that it? It's the um it's all on me. Yeah. When it gets to that point of going regardless of if it was done to you or by you, it is ultimately all on you. Yeah. And what does that say about me? And then the power that comes with that too because then you were your worst enemy but you are also now your greatest hero. Yeah, I love myself now. Dude, I I Dude, I love John 2.0. John 1.0 never liked himself. Never liked himself. This brings up an interesting point cuz I I I really respect people that have gotten sober through a different path cuz you didn't work through 12step. No. No. I just decided Yeah. You're like, I'm going to get sober. And what I think is awesome about that and I see this a lot on the internet. I feel like 12sters are out there like trying to bash any path that's not 12step. And I know you get a lot of that. I've seen your videos and stuff and they're out there and like they can't stand it when someone else has gotten free, but they didn't walk the exact same path. But what's interesting is that and I've met several people that have independent recovery. And I I believe that their recovery is full of life and there's a lesson to be learned in it. It's awesome. We got to the same place at the top of the mountain. We just took different paths on. But what I've always wondered about like the like our content specifically like I'm a male creator in a predominantly female space and I've always felt like Wait, what? I'm a male creator. So our space is primarily spouses and partners of people who struggle with substances. Okay. I thought you meant me like the recovery in general is No. Well, I mean technically, yeah, in a lot of ways I mean three out of four substance abusers are male. So yeah, like but when we're talking about our content on the other side of it's mostly women. women, three out of four of those people have a spouse, generally a woman. And so I always wondered like how soon is too soon to start talking about the shame that you felt from the things that you've done. And like encountering that because you're 5 years in and you were really receptive to that thought. You're like, "Wow." But what about someone who's got a day or a week or a month, right? I think it comes with this is my experience. Um it it comes with time. If I'd have if I'd have brain dumped all that on Kristen on like our first few dates, it would have freaked her I forgot her enough just by putting us in a relationship status on Facebook in the first week. Yeah. Oh, she broke up. She dumped me like a train. But I mean, I think about like Jordan and Cameron. I mean, have you have you exploded everything that you did in your addiction to Cameron? Probably not. Certainly not. Most certainly not. And and they you know there's a a way that you make a living amends to people that you hurt. But then also think that it's it's um there's a contract you have with yourself like you have to make a living amends to yourself but that doesn't mean you have to spew everything. Does that make sense? So to answer your question I don't know if there's a certain point. I think five years is a good good time, you know, that you especially if you've been with someone. But I mean, you okay, I was telling you guys before we started about the lady that came on the podcast and that here's one thing she told me at the end of that. That's a heavy heavy conversation we had. But here's the here's the truth in it. He got to dump all that on her. Now he's relieved of it. She just accepted trauma and now she's dealing with that, right? So it's a what kind of exchange do you want? It's a pretty rough exchange. When is it appropriate? It's not a fair deal right there. Hey babe, I get I get free to Ed. You know what I mean? It's like Yeah. Now you have to deal with all this crap if I've just given you. Yeah. I I think the answer is sooner than we're normally doing it. But I don't think that too soon is a good thing necessarily either. Shame is a tough thing for people in early recovery. Really tough. You know, the shame that you feel it's I am bad, not guilt, which is I did a bad thing. And for some people, it takes a little while to work themselves out of that. But no, I've always just wondered how people outside because like the 12 steps lay out a process for this kind of stuff, you know? It's like you go through and I have I have my issues with the process in itself too. I think that it's not perfect. It's written by people. How could it be perfect? Um but like when we get to like nine for instance, right, when we make amends, like there's a caveat in there except when to do so would injure them or others. But we are not others. So who's is hurting whenever I come forth with this information about the things that I am very aware of how they affected you? Here's my take on it. I think that healing starts at validation. And so if you've hurt someone, acknowledging that, acknowledging their emotions about it, acknowledging their feelings about it sometimes that they're not even aware of. Like when we've my me and my wife had these conversations, I've done a series of amends over the years. Like in the beginning, it's surface level because that's really what I understood. Like I know that I li, right? I know what I li I know lying is bad, right? We know that. We learned that when we were this tall. Lying is bad. But what does lying actually do to a person's psyche? What does that do to their their psychology about how they trust the world and their themselves and and how they're able to trust their own thoughts? Like that really really messes with people. And so maybe a year or two later I'm like, "Wow, like no, like I lied." Like that was like I really lied. Like this is bad. And then years later, you really understand because I lied. You started to respond in the world like this and I've changed you without recognizing it. It's really I don't know. Maybe I think that acknowledging it in the beginning is huge for your loved ones. Oh, yeah. Taking it increment incrementally, right? Yeah. But like the surface level stuff I see a lot of time is just just it's that it's surface level. Melissa had a different experience. My wife, she uh looked at me and uh where someone else saw trash, she saw treasure. So, she was fully invested in this thing. What year was that, bro? I don't know. We were friends for a long time before we were ever a thing. A glorious thing that it is. And um Melissa's in the room. Yeah. And um she she never knew me well. Like she didn't know John 1.0. She didn't know the guy traveling the world making a gazillion dollars. She didn't know that guy. She she knew the guy with a chronic stutter and an inability to be able to go out in public. And so so my my stuff was a little bit the other way. Like she didn't have that back, but she she she didn't have she had all the broken and it was like in order for us to put the pieces together, there had to be complete transparency about everything and a lot because a lot of my stuff was sexual brokenness. So we were putting together some really intimate things that had to have some really intimate conversations about particularly my past and things that were done to me etc. and how they were affecting me going forward. And so we we didn't have we didn't have that arc that that you guys have had. And so it was it was just violent. I mean, she has got a left hook. I mean, that girl's broken my nose on a couple of God. Dude, I'm telling you, give her the evil eyebrow. I'm telling you, she's giving her the wing. She She's got a kidney. Give her an evil eye. See, there's there's we'll have a we'll have an iced tea of choice at some point and I'll tell you some stories about that. But but we we it was tumultuous this coming together and it was just very honest and because it had to be because we couldn't start without a level of honesty because I think I think looking back at it if it wasn't that open then there would have been a level of deception and and and having to find out 10 years later what do you mean you didn't tell me about that thing? M so it's at the other end of of that. Um but I I could imagine with what you've all talked about the incredible courage it would take both on your side to say it and their side to gracefully hear it. Like that's kudos to everybody. That's kudos to you guys and your partners. We've never experienced that. But this that's that's pretty big. As much as I can, I try to make Kristen laugh if I'm going to share something from the past because if I really truly believe in in the the the wall that humor can tear down and if if I'm sharing something, I try to find a way to make it funny because I don't want it to be heavy and I want her to So every time you do a dad joke, she goes, "Oh crap, what's going Oh yeah. And it's a revelation coming sometimes, you know, and she's like, "Just shut up." You know, but um but sometimes it it sometimes it's just the way that she I wanted her to hear it, you know. I wanted to hear it my way. Um and it's it's the way that I can I can tell my truth. You know, there's a lot of lot screwed it up like trying to do it the nice way and then just go, "Yeah, man." I think she would prefer for me to do it in a way that um kind of makes her chuckle, you know, like if if I said um say it say Yeah. I mean, she was big and and if I see you're laughing, so I mean I can I can tell you anything I want right now, but I'm not. I will say that I I tell you what I do like about Jordan, though, is um Did you notice how he changed the topic? Yeah, you did. Yeah. Well, don't put it on me now. Master hook. Yeah. Know what did I do? No, I what Matt talked about the way that you walk uh in your recovery. I believe in a 12step program. But I do think that they need to evolve. I believe in 12step programs, too. I believe in whatever has worked for anyone, then it works. If it worked for you, then that means it's worked. So, do what you do, whoever you are truly. Because the the thing is is what you were saying is um it it's important for people to find that there's other ways to get into your sobriety. There's there's ways for you to find freedom. Um you don't you don't have to check this box. Like I think and I'm not bashing AA. I promise you I'm not I went through AA. Same saved my life. But but there's not a chapter in there to the wives. I mean to the husbands. There's a chapter about to the wives. Have you ever read that chapter? Should go back and read it. Yeah. I haven't reread it in 15 years something. Yeah. But then and then there's Alan on. And so that was the two things. And so what we're doing now, this is how you know we get to evolve it together from your your platform, your platform, your platform. I think what's cool about Jordan's platform is that you got sober like very publicly. Yeah. On social media, you got sober. That's a big risk, isn't it? It I mean it is in a lot of ways because I think when you're sober newly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in a really vulnerable place, right? Like you know what you want to do. You've got all these people rooting for you, but you don't really know what to start on. Like you know that not drinking is part of it. And then you're going through the ups and downs and you're sharing the stuff. I want to know what it's like getting sober publicly when you have the feedback of trolls and all that stuff. Like how is that you make fun of them? Yeah. I really the this may be to my detriment and also like my greatest power, but I truly just I don't care what anyone that's not my mom, my sisters, my husband, and a few very close friends in me think of myself. That's very that's very powerful. I mean, and that's something that's of course Well, that's it may be a little like delusion on my end, so I'm just going to hold on to it and go as far as I can. But you're right, Matt. Um, in the beginning, I started I thought waiting until 6 months of no drinking, I was like, "Oh, I'm killing. This is a this is a lifetime for a drinker." And so, at that point, yeah, I thought, "Okay, this is the longest I've ever gone." And so to in my head that was like me legitimizing my sobriety. And then once I started posting people were very encouraging and it was like okay I can be a hero for a little bit. Mhm. Um, but now that that's not that it's like died down or whatever, but now that I'm sitting in what sobriety long-term dayto-day actually is, I'm kind of having time to reflect on kind of like what you were saying earlier, Matt, of how did my actions affect others? And what does that mean about me for me and and my impact moving forward if if that if I made such a difference without my you know uh platform or whatever um on just a couple of people's lives what is the gravity that we all have now and so I try to sit back I try to practice a lot of gratitude thank you thank you thank you for everything for these cool people that I get to be friends with and learn from and they get to hear from me and learn from me and we all get to collaborate. I just uh try to sit in as much gratitude as possible. I love that. And that's why I'm proud of you before that because I see everything. I mean, I watch what you do. I mean, I follow you and and people do give her a hard time. It's like you're really you What was the last one? There was one you did there like a bubble you put recent. She said, "Are you really? You think?" He said, "You must not be an alcoholic." I thought, "Thank God." Yeah. So, somebody called my mom, let her know. What a thing. Yeah. I'm thinking, well, crazy. It's a very But but I I do get that a lot with um if you didn't go through a 12step or like any program at all, um then you must not be an alcoholic. Y'all, I got sober, so my mom didn't send me to rehab where someone had to tell me what to do, where to sleep, when you get to smoke a cigarette, when you get to do whatever. That is a deeper hell than any addiction that I think. And I think that that's part of my personal addiction, too, is defiance and like a resistance to Yeah. Oh, there's a there's a high in there for that. Do the just being able to do the wrong thing and not get caught. Yeah. I loved it. I loved it. I went through a huge kleptomania phase in my early 20s where I just felt so powerful walking into allegedly walking into a Nordstrom or a Neiman Marcus and just I'm not saying I look any type of way, but I do look like an average basic girl. And so I I was able to just walk in, grab three or four Tory Birch or whatever wallets and walk out. Yeah. Anything for the dople. Allegedly. Anything for the dopamine though. Yeah. And and I just felt like I'm in charge. No one can tell me anything. And even if they do, I have no problem looking them in the face and saying, "You're a [  ] liar. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'll be on my way though. Thanks." And I have no And that's crazy. It's that risky behavior. And this was sober. Uh well, no. I was getting drunk before I was going into humans. Yes. Well, I was going to say cuz like sobriety is just a ticket to entry to growth. That's all it is. Cuz I was talking to a friend the other day. He said when he first got sober, he would I think he had a sponsor who needed Photoshop or something like that and this was like back in 2010 and it was like expensive software on two grand or something but he pirated it from the internet and brought it to him on a CD and he was like hey I got you Photoshop and he's like where did you get this? He's like I can get you anything you want. He's like this is stealing and it just never occurred to him. He was like dang it. I didn't realize like I had to be a good person now. I just stopped doing this. I didn't know that this map show that that's what this was about. And so his road was really wide and then over time it narrows. You start to look at more and more things. It's the people we run into trouble whenever we stop trying to grow intentionally no matter what path you've taken cuz I've met people that got sober in like life ring a smart recovery um medication assisted treatments like all different kinds just absence from it. Yeah. I think um no matter what you're doing if you're growing along the way you're on the right track. Yeah. Would you say you've grown a lot over the last 5 years? Oh, absolutely. I hope there's a lot more room, too. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there is. There's plenty. We're always going to be in process the rest of our lives. Well, and it's like being around you guys who are a little further into your recovery journey or, you know, whatever your recovery journey looks like. You guys have everyone has wisdom, but you specifically who understand and who even being on the other side of it like on the you know, I'm a woman, y'all are men. So our journeys, our interactions, our response is completely different. But hearing like Dr. King, you're always dropping a little nugget of wisdom that I think about all like earlier when you were talking. I remember you said something in our TikTok live and you said men are born with the burden of being broken so that everyone around them can be whole. And when you said that, I thought it it gave me a lot of grace for my my own dad's addiction, which is where of course mine comes from, but also like appreciation for men who live that way, which in my opinion, the three of you, from what I've seen in our interactions, actually do live that way. So, it's very exciting to see the manifestation of that um come to life and to be a part of that group. It's really exciting and it to me says a lot about me and what you guys would think of me. So, oh dudes, I've gotten an inside look at this in the last three or four years. So, like I am the sole male in a group of hundreds of thousands of people. Yeah, you really understand. It's wild. So, like I've really gotten to be privy to conversations that I feel honored to be part of. Like this is like girl talk. I get to go in these rooms. You guys don't. I get to go in these rooms. It's crazy. I get all the tea. But it's um like women I have a newfound respect for just the plight of what women have had to deal with in the last not just this generation but generations beforehand and them and on the other side of addiction and the burdens they take on emotionally. Um it's it's it's really cool hearing you say that though because you see it from the other side. Usually what I see is just guys or women that hate men unfortunately. Well that's what I see a lot of too. I mean, but Matt, that's what I was going to say I really appreciate about you is you've used your which I know it's you and Paige, your wife's um but you've really handed it over to her and you just kind of maybe will give almost like open up the platform for her so that people who look like you three are willing to listen or at least that's how how I kind of see it and that's a huge Yeah, that's like it's so if you're doing that that's good. Yeah, that's that's what I've said. It means a lot. It's her show. Like, this is her show, her program. Um, I'm there. I'm a side character. It's kind of the way I've always seen it. That's what made me kind of decide. I mean, of course, like we're all in this group. We all like each other, but that that's what made me decide to go, "Oh, he lives the way he lives what he says he does, and I, you know, so that was nice." Yeah. It's really cool to be on the other side of it. Um, you know, it's interesting as we're kind of talking about this like I don't know where this is going to go, but it is like misinjury, missandry, how do you say that word? Missry, Missandry, I don't um she babysat me one time. Miss Audrey. Miss Audrey. Yeah. So, it's it's become really popular to hate on men in general, I think, on social media. Like, it's really popular right now to dog on men and to hate on men. And there are like there's gender wars right now online with this kind of stuff. We see it in our comments a lot. Um because what we're dealing with a lot of times, it's a very specific type of guy. This is a guy who's addicted and maybe not abusive, but a lot of them are. Um, and so you're getting people who have that's that's their frame of reference, right? And you mean verbally, mentally, emotionally abusive? Physically, evenly. Yeah. I mean, any way that someone can be abusive, this is what they're dealing with in some ways. Not all of them, but there's some guys that are just and they're doing their best. They're they're just struggling, you know, and their wives, their partners, whoever are just dealing with the fallout of them not being able to show up fully and not function. So, they're over functioning. But there's a lot of abuse, too. And so we get the wrath of what I'm seeing and I'm like what is going on in here? And so I kind of like walked into this wormhole of the internet where maybe it's just the way our algorithm is set up because we're see so much of this stuff but it has become so popular to just hate men. And I think that there are a lot of women out there who firmly believe that there are no good men left like they really do. Is there what's the age of women that you're working with? Is there like a demographic like a 30 to 45? 40% of our listeners are between 30 30 35 and 44. 35 and 44. A good third of them are in that chunk. And you think about what that is. Usually these are women who have been married, left relationships. Hard for them to want to go back. Oh yeah, for sure. But I don't think as guys I don't think a lot of guys are giving them good reason to either though, right? Just being real. And you know, I'm not saying that this this is exactly how it is. But I feel like I would not want to be back out there. You know what I mean? Like trying to date or No. Absolutely not. No. No. No. I can't imagine. And Cameron and I got well, we met in 2021. I was one year sober. So, we met in 2022. So, I was only a year sober. And now I think about that, I'm like, I'm so sorry. You know, you actually have no idea what's to come. In the four years that we've known each other in the year that we've been married, I'm like, okay, lots happened. This is just the beginning. I'm so sorry. you know, like you said, I'm just now starting to process what I did, what happened, and um luckily he's a nice guy like you three. But will he come alongside of you at any point, you think, and and become a part of your platform, or you want it just to stay your point of view? Will you ever Oh, I don't think so. He's not really like a he's not out there like that. Yeah, I don't think he would. I like I think he say whatever Eric said. Yeah. Whatever Matt said, whatever Dr. King said, I agree. Yeah. He's like a keep to himself, which I love, too. We're kind of yin and yang. I'm I'm loud. He's quiet. I'm hard. He's soft. D. So, it's nice. Well, um before we kind of wrap up, we we talked about what 2025 was and it was hard. Good. Successful reaching, you know, all of you guys brought this stuff to the table of of just transparency. But as we kind of shift, we got like five minutes left. Tell me what your main goal would be for 2026, whether it's professional or with your platform. Start with you, Matt. Man, this this next like the next we so we have a we have a program called Reclaiming You and Spouses and Partners, and we have meetings Wednesday evenings, and we we're on the Zoom calls, Paige and I, and we were talking about this very thing, and I was like, I what do I want to accomplish this year? Like, I want to get boots on the ground meeting with people in their cities. Mhm. and running workshops full-time. I want to leave my career and do this full-time. That is my dream for the next year is if we could get the show to a point where I could keep the lights on, that would be it for me. That's really what I'm focused on. That's great. Like I I want to help people full-time. I think God created everyone with a purpose of some kind. Mine I'm supposed to be out there helping people. That's my job. You talked about it in the beginning. You you were going to do this for five years and just see it through. How how far into it are you now? We are in our fourth year. So, it's getting close. Yeah. I I think you just mashed the gas. That's what you have. You have a measurable plan in place like like points like I need to hit this that month. No, man. I'm still trying to schedule baseball practice. I wing it every day. I really do. Like, we wing it. Just get out there, be authentic, reach people, help people if you can. But at some point, I'm going to have to make a sacrifice and just jump and just do it. Yeah. You know, but leaving behind like a successful business, like just dumping it like I can't do this anymore. Yeah. No, I get it. And I've done that work. We we kind of shared that that that that work in my past. Um and it's good work, but it's you know it's work. This is you get to do this and it doesn't feel like a job. That's why it's fun and enjoyment. Yeah. Um how about you, Mr. Jordan? What do you what's your biggest goal you'd like to see in 2026? Have you thought in about it at all? You know, I don't know if I have one particular goal, but I think I would like to continue diving deeper into myself, if that makes sense, and kind of figuring out who exactly I am and how I feel about myself. And um I'd love to increase, of course, my reach, helping people, talking about addiction. I'm always going to talk about it and I'm always going to say what I think, the way that I think it. Um so I'd love to increase stuff like that. I love doing stuff with you with recovery vow. Um last year we did Cameron and I came to a workshop here which was awesome. So I would love to do something else like that with you. I think that was wonderful. I've told you this before. I think you could be a tremendously successful coach. Oh, thank you. I mean, I'm really and I'm not say I mean, all of us are coaches to an extent, but there's something about you and uh being the age that you are being newly newly married, you you have you have a reach to an audience that we don't and I think it's important for you to tap into that, but that's just my point of view. Well, thank you, Cameron, if you're listening. continuing on um kind of just like the upward trajectory of sobriety, all the possibilities that it brings every day and um yeah, just continuing to like root in gratitude that seems to bring all kinds of opportunities, joy, happiness, all that stuff. So that's fantastic. Daughter King, um I'm a writer and my wife's a painter and 12 months ago we decided that that's what we want to do for the next 20 years. So, we gave ourselves 12 months. We ran the budget um to secure an agent and to get published. So, we've secured the agent in April and we look like we'll publish mainstream. Love it. In the next, we'll find out in the next four or five weeks. So, that's one. Let's go. Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. She paints really cool birds. They're kind of really awkward. It's I mean really groovy. She's groovy. She's a hippie. You're groovy. She She's a hippie. She's a she's got a masters in economics and she is a hippie. She raises chickens and a dog. So, she's fantastic. She's a contradiction. So, there's that. And the second thing is I think in my recovery, I was in a a position I was very grateful of. I was able to take 15 years and about $300,000 um to work it out because there was no one talking about the sexual abuse of boys. And yet the statistics say 45% of all sexual abuse victims are males. 45% of perpetrators are females. So I had to craft my own recovery. So I was very interested in your conversation on that. So tonight's actually our launch tonight. And yeah, we've taken 15 years of this and we've uh distilled it down to an 18-month program. Um and we've got eight master classes for free this year for people. And I'm literally taking a life's work and we're giving it away. And we I think it's like $27 for a lifetime. 160 odd videos. We put it all there. And we just want to hit that exponential space of Yeah. I want to sod to reap it. I want to There was no one there when I was need needed it and I want to be there. I want to be able to give this stuff away. So we've we've developed a whole series of courses together and um so yeah, we launched that tonight. I go from here to a Zoom with anywhere between like two people and 200 and we just start and just see where it goes. Just having conversation. Just having a chat, mate. Just giving some stuff away. Yeah. We're talking about redefining normal tonight. What it means to redefine normal. I love it. What about you? Me? Yeah. Uh 2026. Mhm. I'm going to write my second book hopefully. Good. Um, awesome. And I'll introduce you to an agent. Okay. And um, you know, I I did something this January I've never done before. I didn't eat food for three days. I only drank water. Water fast. Water fast. It was insane. I was never hungry, though. And then it made me realize that um, spiritual, isn't it? It very is. Yeah. It was insane. Um I would like to tell you like the day that I you know found recovery line it was white light doves and all that flow but that's not the case. It was it made me remember though that people can choose uh they're you know not drinking or not doing drugs and and and once you make get to a you know one day two days three days well I got to eat on the third day but it just made me realize like it it's hard doing this work. People think, "Oh, you get a podcast and you get a book and you get all these friends and stuff like that." But it's it's it just begins. It just it it's hard, but then it's so much enjoyment. But for this year, I just want to see um same thing you guys do. I want to I want to reach more people and and each one of us have our own opportunity to reach a certain demographic. Um I don't want to name my demographic. I don't want to call out anything other than just being available. Um I would love to tell you that I have a plan, but I don't. And the last time I had a plan, it was a train wreck. And I was 12. It was it was it was completely changed, you know. Um that's good, brother. Yeah. I just uh I just want to um be available about that. I just want That's good. Yeah. I like that. Available to be used. Yeah. Just want to be available. Um service, right? Yeah. I mean, life change like life things that happened this year. Like Cameron, my oldest son, went off to college. That was this that's a new season cuz I sit in the living room and it's a new life for him to come in from like being out and then I didn't get emotional till I got home from dropping him off like I was lose it on that day. But when he didn't come home on his curfew and I'm like well I can go to bed now. It was like so weird. It was like end of a series you know and Christian's right behind him and I don't I don't see my youngest son cry often. He's 16. He's like this ba he cried. He's like I miss I miss his brother, you know. And so it's this new season we go into. So, I don't want to go in there with too much of a plan because the season can change, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. You're ready to adjust. And so, I just want to be present. But, um, I do want to say present. Yeah. I just want to be present. Um, so I just want to say thank you so much for being on the podcast today and just coming and and trying this round table. You know, we've got this fun. We we get to do this, you know, um, not often, but we do get to um we go live on TikTok sometimes and people can come hang out with us and I'd like to continue doing that in the new year. Absolutely. And um but yeah, Jordan, thank you so much. Matt, Dr. King, thank you all so much for being here together, man. Yeah, thanks for having us.